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Conflict in the Middle East

To wonder how people justify the west Bank settlements

111 replies

Pizfufffff · 29/11/2023 09:54

I am not an expert on the Israel Palestine issue. I did do my dissertation on the legalities of expansion of Israeli settlements under international law years ago so I have some knowledge of the issue. I have always wondered how people justify the expansion of settlements in the West Bank. This is not to cause an issue or start an argument. I'm genuinely really interested in hearing opposing views.

OP posts:
VickyEadieofThigh · 29/11/2023 09:56

YouYou'assuming others know as much as you do about it.

Pizfufffff · 29/11/2023 09:58

VickyEadieofThigh · 29/11/2023 09:56

YouYou'assuming others know as much as you do about it.

I think I was just interested in peoples moral justifications for them. I personally find it indefensible and having gone through countless literature, court cases etc I cannot see any justification myself but I am aware that some people support the expansion of West Bank settlements, I was wondering how and why

OP posts:
PurpleChrayne · 29/11/2023 10:08

Surely if you've done a dissertation about it, you have the resources to do some research of your own.

Settlements are highly disputed within Israel. My Israeli husband is firmly against them, and used to go on a lot of protests when he was living there. However, his right-wing cousin is a settler himself.

Pizfufffff · 29/11/2023 10:11

PurpleChrayne · 29/11/2023 10:08

Surely if you've done a dissertation about it, you have the resources to do some research of your own.

Settlements are highly disputed within Israel. My Israeli husband is firmly against them, and used to go on a lot of protests when he was living there. However, his right-wing cousin is a settler himself.

I do have the resources but aside from academic and legal arguments I am genuinely interested in what day to day normal people think, which is why I asked on here. Your response was interesting to me so thank you.

OP posts:
MrsSkylerWhite · 29/11/2023 10:12

They’re outrageous.

hydriotaphia · 29/11/2023 10:18

Er surely if you have researched this issue you know that Israel considers its own borders to have been expanded in the 6 day war. So it justifies occupying these territories because it regards them as part of it. Tactically the reason it expanded is to create a buffer zone from which rockets can't be launched into Israel. Not saying I agree with these reasons. If you're interested in this issue, mumsnet is a weird place to do research on it tbh.

Pizfufffff · 29/11/2023 10:22

hydriotaphia · 29/11/2023 10:18

Er surely if you have researched this issue you know that Israel considers its own borders to have been expanded in the 6 day war. So it justifies occupying these territories because it regards them as part of it. Tactically the reason it expanded is to create a buffer zone from which rockets can't be launched into Israel. Not saying I agree with these reasons. If you're interested in this issue, mumsnet is a weird place to do research on it tbh.

Why? There are lots of intelligent people on here. I'm not doing serious academic research. I'm asking day to day people's views and justifications, as these points of view do not come across much in the literature.

OP posts:
hydriotaphia · 29/11/2023 10:25

Because this is a UK based site and 99% of people in the UK don't know much about this issue (me included), and of the 1% that do not all will be supportive of settlements? Why don't you try to read some Israeli views on the topic?

KatBurglar · 29/11/2023 10:26

I think they are indefensible. They are an illegal occupation. I don’t know any Jewish people outside of Israel who support them.

HappierTimesAhead · 29/11/2023 10:27

hydriotaphia · 29/11/2023 10:25

Because this is a UK based site and 99% of people in the UK don't know much about this issue (me included), and of the 1% that do not all will be supportive of settlements? Why don't you try to read some Israeli views on the topic?

You have no idea about what knowledge people who use mumsnet have on this issue. The OP obviously knows a lot and uses mumsnet! And she/he can ask the question on here if they want to!

HappierTimesAhead · 29/11/2023 10:31

Personally I do not think there is any justification. That is why it is internationally recognised as occupation.

NoCloudsAllowed · 29/11/2023 10:43

The settlers think they have a god-given right to be there. Their government doesn't stop them.

hydriotaphia · 29/11/2023 10:46

"You have no idea about what knowledge people who use mumsnet have on this issue. The OP obviously knows a lot and uses mumsnet! And she/he can ask the question on here if they want to!"

Yes she obviously can ask the question but she's not going to find many people who are massively in favour of settlements on this UK based website. Most people who know anything about settlements in the UK are against them - support for them is almost entirely Israeli (which is not to say that all Israelis support them) and to a lesser extent among Jewish communities in the US. I agree with a PP that I don't know any English Jews who are in favour of settlements. This is just a completely random constituency of people to ask.

hydriotaphia · 29/11/2023 10:47

I'll be surprised if even one person comes on to post their own personal views in favour of settlements tbh.

Nonentity2023 · 29/11/2023 10:51

There’s no valid justification for them.

Cloudysky81 · 29/11/2023 10:52

I’ve always understood they were justified as a buffer zone for security reasons similar to the Golan Heights.
I never really understood why that meant people would live in those areas though as oppose to keeping it as an unoccupied neutral zone.

eardefender · 29/11/2023 11:03

There is a lot online about them.

Security - this is a valid reason and now more so than ever this will be a justification. The west bank is much bigger than Gaza and has a much greater vantage point over the whole of Israel so this is an obvious reason. The stated aim of Palestinian groups is to kill jews and annihilate Israel, Israeli's would be mad to de occupy. Look how that worked out in Gaza.

legality - this is a tricky and interesting one. Much of the land seems to have no legal ownership. My understanding is that a settler will start to live and build a piece pf ;and and that land has no ownership that can be found. In the UK we have the land registry but this is not the case in the west bank therefore making it easier for someone to pitch up and build and the legal case to remove them is flimsy or unclear. This, i don't think it talked about enough.

The 6 day war and dispute over ownership. Legally the whole of the west bank is Israel. No one else wants this land, i believe Jordan didn't want it. Who would want the security issues aside from Israel.

HeidiInTheBigCity · 29/11/2023 11:14

I'm not a settler, settlement advocate or anything of the sort (the polar opposite, actually) - but I have had the extremely questionable pleasure of having come in contact with the more militant end of West Bank settlers more than once.

The way they explained what they were doing to be basically boils down to "the land is ours, so this is where we ought to be".

For a lot of the more extreme types, there are religious aspects to why they think this - but I have, in fact, come across reasonably "secular" arguments a couple of times, too.

Underlying all of it, in my personal experience but also from what I have read, the basic, underlying premise is simply "we have more of a legitimate claim to the land than they do". Underpinning this, you'll then find all sorts of arguments, ranging from the comparatively benign claim that there is simply no such thing as a unique Palestinian identity and "why don't they just move across the river where their kind live?" (which, just to be clear, is an insane mentality and the rhetoric of ethnic cleansing; I say "comparatively benign" in the sense of "at least it acknowledges that people need somewhere to live") to outright supremacy rhetoric that entirely dehumanises Palestinians and is basically indifferent as to whether they just go or die. All of it, however, is deeply routed in a mindset of tribalism, though.

There are many more aspects to the question of settlements, of course, such as the fact that, especially in the areas around Jerusalem, a lot of people simply live in settlements for the economic advantages, such as the fact that the entire political project of Netanyahu has been to make a two-state solution impossible, and settlements are the primary weapon, by which this war is waged, etc. I'm not going to write an entire essay on MN.

... but your question was "how do people morally justify it?", and this is, broadly, what I have heard from the horse's mouth and read over the years.

Pizfufffff · 29/11/2023 11:21

HeidiInTheBigCity · 29/11/2023 11:14

I'm not a settler, settlement advocate or anything of the sort (the polar opposite, actually) - but I have had the extremely questionable pleasure of having come in contact with the more militant end of West Bank settlers more than once.

The way they explained what they were doing to be basically boils down to "the land is ours, so this is where we ought to be".

For a lot of the more extreme types, there are religious aspects to why they think this - but I have, in fact, come across reasonably "secular" arguments a couple of times, too.

Underlying all of it, in my personal experience but also from what I have read, the basic, underlying premise is simply "we have more of a legitimate claim to the land than they do". Underpinning this, you'll then find all sorts of arguments, ranging from the comparatively benign claim that there is simply no such thing as a unique Palestinian identity and "why don't they just move across the river where their kind live?" (which, just to be clear, is an insane mentality and the rhetoric of ethnic cleansing; I say "comparatively benign" in the sense of "at least it acknowledges that people need somewhere to live") to outright supremacy rhetoric that entirely dehumanises Palestinians and is basically indifferent as to whether they just go or die. All of it, however, is deeply routed in a mindset of tribalism, though.

There are many more aspects to the question of settlements, of course, such as the fact that, especially in the areas around Jerusalem, a lot of people simply live in settlements for the economic advantages, such as the fact that the entire political project of Netanyahu has been to make a two-state solution impossible, and settlements are the primary weapon, by which this war is waged, etc. I'm not going to write an entire essay on MN.

... but your question was "how do people morally justify it?", and this is, broadly, what I have heard from the horse's mouth and read over the years.

Fascinating thank you

OP posts:
Xiaoxiong · 29/11/2023 11:26

There is a very illuminating interview with a settler leader in the New Yorker from a week or two ago - I found it fascinating to see her justifications, and how alien her thought process is to me: https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extreme-ambitions-of-west-bank-settlers

The Extreme Ambitions of West Bank Settlers

A leader of the settlement movement on expanding into Gaza, and her vision for the Jewish state.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extreme-ambitions-of-west-bank-settlers

stormy4319trevor · 29/11/2023 11:29

@HeidiInTheBigCity Very interesting. I do think the cheaper property, increased space, subsidies and more space are appealing to those who live in settlements. I heard an interview with a woman saying there was more fresh air, more nature and a better place to raise children. So there are economic and lifestyle incentives. I think the intention of 'growing' the territory has always been there, simply because the WB is quite green in places and important for water. Plus the population in Israel will naturally expand and they will run out of space.

Thisusernamenotavailable · 29/11/2023 11:33

I have a friend in a West Bank settlement just over the line. It is an established town or city that has been there for decades now. She lives there because it is cheap. She was brought up in an extremely religious family and thinks the land has been fairly “won” in wars started by Palestinians. Most of her family are still über religious and some live deep in the West Bank where they have to cross Arab villages to get there and be guarded by soldiers. They believe it is their religious duty to live there. They have a very deep fear of Palestinians and believe that every Palestinian would kill them if they had the chance.

There is no debate with these people but I have known my friend since childhood and she is a good person who has been brought up in circumstances and narrative you couldn’t begin to imagine.

The majority of my friends and family in the main part of Israel are against the settlements and very left wing. But they are not religious. It is often tied into religious beliefs and fear, which unfortunately comes across as arrogance and superiority.

Parkingt111 · 29/11/2023 11:36

As a previous poster said you will rarely find anyone who will openly support the settlements. And I believe that's because it's one of the issues that has recieved and continues to recieve outright condemnation and criticism from Israel's allies.
The US is very critical of them and the expansion of them under Netanyahu and his right wing party
Infact it was only recently that a frustrated Biden said the US would consider visa bans to the extremist settlers
I think there tends to be a misunderstanding that the majority of Israelis support the actions of the settlers and settlements when I don't think it is the case
It is also a huge hindrance towards gaining a two state solution

SpringViolet · 29/11/2023 11:38

This is obviously from a Jewish POV but interesting nonetheless regarding media reports of the legality of settlements:

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/myths-and-facts-israeli-settlements?utm_content=cmp-true

I always understood the West Bank to have been part of Jordan, won by Israel in the 6 day war and then offered back to Jordan who didn’t want it back, so Israel were stuck with it. Therefore I never understood why Palestinians say it’s their land? Surely Jordanians gave more of a right over it?

I remember seeing a shocking video of a Palestinian woman confronting a Jewish settler who was apparently ‘stealing’ her land and forcing her from her house, but it turned out the Palestinian family were effectively squatting as the land was Jewish owned with deeds.

Seems to be a lot of propaganda about this.

Myths and Facts Israeli Settlements

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/myths-and-facts-israeli-settlements?utm_content=cmp-true

stormy4319trevor · 29/11/2023 11:45

@SpringViolet It's because the WB was part of the partition plan drawn up by the UN to provide space for a Palestinian state. After 1967 war Israel was asked to withdraw to the 1948 armistice lines, security council resolution 242. Without the WB there's no land available for a Palestinian state.

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