To wonder how people justify the west Bank settlements

[Pizfufffff]

I am not an expert on the Israel Palestine issue. I did do my dissertation on the legalities of expansion of Israeli settlements under international law years ago so I have some knowledge of the issue. I have always wondered how people justify the expansion of settlements in the West Bank. This is not to cause an issue or start an argument. I'm genuinely really interested in hearing opposing views.

I almost have a bigger issue with the West Bank than I do with Gaza. I can see why Israel has responded how it has on Gaza, I understand the need to eliminate HAmas and keep Israel safe. I am extremely concerned about the humanitarian issues but I understand why it is happening and don’t believe Israel could have done much different.
I do not and can never understand how it is ok to be settling on land which is under the rule PA and expect to live under Israeli rule. It is abhorrent

The current government is very right wing and as they are democratically elected you have to deduce that the majority has spoken and agree. Within Israel there is a 'battle' between secular/liberal Jews and ultra religious ones. Secular ones are obviously concerned that the governance is going to become more religious, with less freedoms. So although they might voice opposition, it doesn't amount to anything.
B'tSelem is a great organization. It has been deemed antisemitic by some posters on here though.

As I understand it - electoral system is by proportional representation not FPTP like in UK

It's the system used in most of Europe

Netanyahu's party got the most votes so gets the first chance at forming a coalition even though they only got 22% of the vote

His coalition with even more extreme parties put him in power

In Europe it generally doesn't work that way in-as-much-as more extreme parties only get a small portion of the vote so aren't in a position to lead/form a coalition

Well international law doesn't think it's OK either but as Ben Gvir said, "who is going to stop us?" 😢

That is not quite true, though, about European electoral democracies, is it?

You need only look at places like Germany (far-right AfD is the 2nd strongest), France (LePen was almost president), Switzerland with their "people's party", Hungary (far right actually in power), Italy (look at Meloni), and - most recently - the Netherlands.

None of this is to excuse the likes of Ben Gvir and Smotrich - but Israel is far from being an exception re. this scary, scary rise of a populist right with, to put this diplomatically, ever so slightly fascistic tendencies.

What is even more scary - and, again, Israel has this, too, and is no exception here - is how the center-right seems to think that by pandering to some of their polemics, they may save themselves (it's not working, voters who approve of this kind of ideology prefer the original over the "ASDA own brand" variety).

Again, none of this excuses the far-right government of Israel even remotely - but we would be exceedingly naive to believe that "it could never happen here".

@HeidiInTheBigCity Would it be like the more right wing of the Conservative party in the UK forming a coalition with parties like Reform UK? I don't know if the UK has any extreme right parties, but Reform is the most rw I can think of at the moment.

Realise all that - was just trying to keep it simple and not write an essay

Both systems have their problems and don't always fairly represent the electorate which was what the poster was asking

What are posters expecting those who oppose illegal settlements do? Ordinary Israelis. They can express their opinions at the ballot box. Maybe petitions, maybe influence via social media. Like we can do here.

What more are they expected to do? I have family there. As far as I know they support the 2 state solution and don't vote Likud. They are just trying to live their lives in peace. Why should they be expected to control the crazies in the West Bank?

Are your pearls real or fake?

I’m not an expert as it’s obviously a quite niche area in law due to the land being Jordanian territory and then returned to Israel Etc; but from what I understand it’s not all necessarily ‘illegal’. Lots of the land seems to be Jewish owned (some from even before it was owned by Jordan for that section of the second half of the 20th century) or owned by the state of Israel; and whilst Palestinians have been living on it, they don’t own it. So while the Israeli landlords selling it on/renting out to Jews coming in from the US and so on are doing in in ways that end up being really inflammatory due to the existing fear/religious tensions from both sides and the physical WAY in which they move in, they’re not doing anything illegal.

I’m in no way saying I agree with this or the way certain Jewish factions are going about it; but I understand that this is partly why it’s difficult to stop happening. Because it’s hard for the Palestinians to claim a right over the land if it actually belongs to Jewish owners/Israel; even if they’ve built their house on said land. It’s very complex and although the way the Jewish settlers are behaving is often horrible, if they’ve bought the land legally or already own it, they feel it’s theirs to do with as they please.

That's really interesting. Can you recommend anything to read on this?

@OneOffQuestions yes I think there were also massive protests all this year in opposition to the government’s attempt to change judicial law in part to make way for legalising the settlements (this is my understanding) along with authoritarian rule. A large number of Israelis are in opposition to the settlements and consider them at least part to blame for the instability.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-64929563

There is absolutely no justification and the people who support the settlers will just shout Hamas at you.

@evelynevelyn will try and compile some for you later; I’m just mooching around online before the start of a meeting at half 11 🙈. I know some of the programmes previous posters have already talked about mention the absentee Jewish landlords/owners; the one about the American orthodox guy moving in as a tenant and basically saying ‘if it’s not me kicking you out it’ll be someone else’ is due to the land being owned by a jewish landlord and so the Palestinians who live there not actually having any legal recourse over it.

Again I don’t support this; it’s awful for the people who live there being kicked out their houses in what is definitely a violent and horrible way, it’s really unacceptable and there needs to be better mediation and ideally a two state solution. But in some of the areas the reasons Jews feel they have a claim to the land is because it’s either owned directly by them; or was transferred from Jordan to Israel in 1968 (it was ruled by them since 1949 and then Palestinians in West Bank still had Jordanian citizenship till 1988). So their argument is that the land is legally/officially/whatever they want to call it Israel’s, as that’s who Jordan transferred it to. Not Palestine.

It’s shitty, but the OP was asking how it could be justified and from what I understand this is (some) Israelis justification for taking over bits of the area even if Palestinians currently live in it.

I too will be interested in this. My understanding from a legal perspective is that in 1948 when Israel was created individual land belonging to Palestinians was legally supposed to stay this way according to international law. Israel did not honour this, and those who ideologically believe that the land of Judea and Samaria (West Bank) is for Jewish people only believe that God's law transcends that of any other law, so it is fair game for them, or as Ben Gvir said "it will be ours by hook or by crook".
America, who uphold Israel even say that the settlements need to be dismantled and the land handed back. It is considered Occupied Palestinian Territory by every state in the world.

There’s a poster here who’s a very knowledgable Middle Eastern historian and I’m sure she’s explained the reasons people feel justified to do this on previous threads, I’m hoping she’ll see this thread and come contribute. @lemonyticket

I understand an issue with that particular 1948 agreement @feralunderclass is that a lot of the Palestinians didn’t have any proof they owned the land as they often hadn’t purchased it formally to avoid paying ottoman/British taxes (from wiki: Palestinians in practice had often avoided registering their property under the Ottomans, preferring their local collective ownership system (musha'a), thus evading Ottoman taxes and army drafts.[9). So when the Jordanians invaded it they took it for state land, and then gave it back to Israel as same.

I’m certainly not a legal expert in that area, but I know some settlers and this is how it’s been explained to me. I really don’t agree! But it doesn’t appear to be a religious/God given thing for all of them, many seem they have (or believe to have) a legitimate claim to the land. And some definitely do actually own it.

In the LT programme (sorry can't even remember if this is the same thread 😅) a settler said under Israeli law that if land was uninhabited for 3 years, then it belongs to Israel. That is a law made up by Israel, that is not accepted under international law. As I said, the illegal occupation of the West Bank is acknowledged by every nation state in the world. A lot of Israelis even say it too, even Ben Gvir acknowledged it when pressed.

@Jeezypeepers The occupation and annexation by Jordan was not internationally recognised Annexation is usually seen as an aggressive and illegal act. So nothing belonged to Jordan legally, and nothing was theirs to give away legally. WB was allocated in the UN partition plan as part of a future Palestinian state. Israel was required to withdraw to 1948 Armistice lines after the 1967 war. They did not. As for claims that land belonged to Jewish people before 1948 and therefore they can claim it back now - are the claims independently verified and is it usual to give land back when it's been lived on by other people for generations?

And do we expect any form of judicial punishment? Tragically not 💔

"In Europe it generally doesn't work that way in-as-much-as more extreme parties only get a small portion of the vote so aren't in a position to lead/form a coalition"

What about Italy and the Netherlands? That's just western Europe.
This is not the fault of PR of course, it's the fault of people who vote for the extreme right.

"I understand an issue with that particular 1948 agreement @feralunderclassis that a lot of the Palestinians didn’t have any proof they owned the land as they often hadn’t purchased it formally [sic] to avoid paying ottoman/British taxes (from wiki: Palestinians in practice had often avoided registering their property under the Ottomans, preferring their local collective ownership system (musha'a), thus evading Ottoman taxes and army drafts.[9). So when the Jordanians invaded it they took it for state land, and then gave it back to Israel as same."

Yes, it's not as simple as just not having deeds I think.

newer news are indicating it was part of their family who killed her
https://www.timesofisrael.com/pregnant-woman-stabbed-to-death-in-front-of-her-kids-in-lod-unborn-baby-also-dies/amp/

"You need only look at places like Germany (far-right AfD is the 2nd strongest), France (LePen was almost president), Switzerland with their "people's party", Hungary (far right actually in power), Italy (look at Meloni), and - most recently - the Netherlands."

Sorry, cross posted with you.

@Gwenhwyfar I've already explained myself

Please don't de-rail this thread

Thank you