"The war in Gaza has been an intense lesson in western hypocrisy. It won’t be forgotten"

[flashbac]

She nails it on the head:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/27/war-gaza-lesson-western-hypocrisy-international-community

All of this is to speculate what is best for ISRAEL. And as you say, neither option is great.

Now let’s look at what’s best for the thousands of innocent children in Gaza.

@YankeeDad
Option 3 would have been to stop killing people and stealing their land. And to stop bombing thousands and thousands of innocent children and making more than a million homeless.
Then Israel wouldn’t lose international support.

It’s all such a mess now, I don’t see how it can be fixed. But it was foreseeable and preventable.

I'm glad this thread is here now. Its very pertinent to how i feel. I agree with so much written here.
I've had to have time away from the ME threads. The feeling of utter helplessness and frustration and anger was getting to me. And guilt. That i could step away and get on with my nice life. And utter hatred, that I've not really felt before. Hatred for posters continually challenging anything pro Palestine, with a superiority they shouldn't be questioned. And this sort of moral superiority being played out in the Westminster government where no one can be anything other than pro Israel. Although i never supported the tories and starmer is looking less than credible now too. As for Biden, he will never be welcome in Ireland again. So much for his roots.

Anyway i just wanted to thank the posters above, and others, who have continually called out this genocide happening in Gaza, whilst never minimising the horrific attack hamas carried out in oct 7th. I can't read some, well most, of the ME threads just now, the same posters continually trying to excuse the Israeli government and continually posting horrific details of the October 7th attack as justification for over 13000 being murdered in Gaza. These posters seem to have the same view as many western world leaders and it sickens me how one sided this is being shown.

I think thats what sickens me the most, the way this has been relayed to us by the mainstream media. How we are shown stories of the hostages getting home at last and how happy they are. No word on the freed Palestinians or the very recent Palestinians being still locked up. No mention that the freed Palestinians have been told by Israel that they cannot celebrate their release outside or even inside their own homes. Nor on social media, or they will be taken prisoner again. No mention of this injustice anywhere.
And that's just a teeny tiny bit if whats going on. And my utter raging frustration is nowhere near a patch on the people living through this. I can't even begin to imagine their lives.

I just hope they know, same how, we don't all stand with Israel, no matter what our governments are saying.
I'd rather stand with the devil tight now, he seems a safer option.

Yes. I don’t think we humans want to learn from our mistakes, really. The juxtaposition, time-wise, of the relentless bombing of Gaza with Remembrance Sunday made this clear. It can be very dispiriting trying to raise children against this backdrop. It could drive one to despair.

If you are only just seeing it now, ask 'why?'

I really struggled with 9/11 and marched against the war in Iraq largely because I didn't think there was a workable exit strategy and it would just fuel more problems. That was 20 years ago. I also had major issues over what the US (and UK and other nations) viewed as 'unacceptable' violence and 'acceptable collateral damage'.

And there are plenty of examples that predate even that. Vietnam anyone?

This isn't new.

What rock were you hiding under or why weren't you paying attention sooner?

@ssd I agree with much of what you say; the BBC and Ch4 have however mentioned several times that the Palestinians released from prison are “not allowed” by the Israeli authorities to celebrate. Mind boggling, really.

I agreed with every word of the article! Great to see that others do also.

Are you saying that if Israel gave back all of the settlements, then Hamas and the Palestinians would peacefully accept a 2-state solution?

Sociopaths or realists?
Melodramatic or quiet pondering?

YankeeDad, I certainly think that Israel’s action, recently and historically has led to alot of radicalisation. There is so much racism and Islamphibia about that some people genuinely think that certain ethnic groups are disposed to terrorism and violence. This is not true all human beings are the same in this respect. It is perfectly possible to live in peace with another ethnic group if we are prepared to treat the other with kindness and respect. Israel’s approach so far has been to crush Palestinians as much as possible. Maybe if they tried another approach there would no Hamas.

Maybe she’s younger than you, or was focusing on work or rigorous training in some discipline eg medicine, maybe she was a carer or had family issues or some other pressing issues. Maybe she’s usually out and about engaging with her immediate community and not with something on the internet that happens far away. Not everyone is a news or history junkie, and why should they be?

This isn’t to be hostile. I normally like your input @RedToothBrush This West-backed mass murder is so huge and bewildering that everyone is forced to be aware of it but there’s no need to sneer at people who haven’t spent the last 20 years intensely studying international affairs.

Thank you. Good response. Israel can’t blame Hamas solely for all of this. Israel has done a lot over the last few years to shore up radicalism and hatred - and is now doing a whole lot more.

But @RedToothBrush I do absolutely agree with you about Iraq. And I’ve heard Israeli politicians and army on TV saying “But Britain and the US killed thousands in Iraq so why can’t we do it now?”🙄🙄

There wasn’t so much social media and mobile phone footage around then though so the casual follower of mainstream media in all its minimisation simply wouldn’t have realised until much later.

Yes. That's what most Palestinians want. That's what Hamas calls for in its 2017 charter. I'm not sure why you seem so surprised at this concept.

@Thereissomelight excellent point. I hate the idea that because this issue has become a focus for some people later that they have had their eyes off the ball. People's interests and focusses change through their lives - due to family, age, access to news and information, people they encounter, education or other priorities, or anything really. The idea that one is "bad" or "lazy" because they show an interest later than others is blinkered and unhelpful. Show up later than others, it's fine. Doesn't make you a bad, stupid, uncultured or a lazy person. Better now than never.

Netanyahu told Elon Musk that he wants to see more of the Middle East being like Abu Dhabi, Quatar, Bahrain. Moderate, western-friendly, better standard of living. Maybe in his head he thinks bombing and killing thousands of children will actually achieve this.

Best case scenario is that the post-ceasefire phase will be more moderate with much less killing and much more humanitarian aid. Followed by people’s homes, hospitals and universities being rebuilt and a political solution being hammered out AND ENFORCED.

Worst case scenario is that phase two results in many more deaths - possibly with a total blackout of information, including on X - followed by Israel taking Gaza and its gas reserves for itself and many years of further unrest and hatred to come (which will be blamed solely on Hamas 2).

I'm not sneering at anyone.

And it's certainly not directed at the OP in isolation.

There are definitely a lot of people coming to this realisation who are middle aged or older.

It's a certain frustration that the Guardian thinks this is somehow a new thing and the general reaction to the article.

I think it's generally indicative of the western bubble we live in which social media has amplified in some cases or led to conspiracy nutjobs because there isn't really a coherent 'officially sanctioned' response to the criticise.

I don't think you need to be massively into politics though either. I think even up to GCSE history should give you a good grounding into a lot of the problem.

My understanding is that Hamas wants Israel to ultimately vacate ALL of the land within which the state of Israel exists, not just the settlements outside of the 1967 borders, ie that they consider the entirety of the State of Israel to be an illegal settlement that needs to be eliminated. A Palestinian state within the areas outside of the 1967 borders would be a "transitional arrangement" on the path towards that elimination.

I think most people want to trust that their politicians know their jobs and will do the right thing. So that they themselves can get on with being dentists, care workers, accountants, farmers, what have you. It comes as a shock to realise that in situations like this there is no wise adult in charge.

I also think that there is too much false labelling of opinions and behaviours into what politics you follow. If you’re a leftie you must be this. If you vote Republican you must be that. If you don’t vote at all there must be something wrong with you. I think that basically people are either decent humans who try to help - or at least not hurt - those around them, and those who don’t give a fuck who gets hurt as long as they get what they want. “Collateral damage” is the term they use.

I don't think you need to be massively into politics though either. I think even up to GCSE history should give you a good grounding into a lot of the problem.

When I did GSCE history this was not covered in the slightest.

Israel talks about taking the land too.
And also does it.

@Backbutnotready
Yes, I’d heard that the Hamas charter isn’t as all-or-nothing as we keep being told but I couldn’t find it.