People With Very Strong or Definite Views on the 'Right' Side

[miniaturepixieonacid]

This is mainly me being curious and struggling to understand my own feelings on all this.

I am neither Jewish nor Muslim (I'm a Christian) and have no links to Israel or Palestine. So my knowledge and understanding of the recent past is, perhaps wrongly, quite limited. All I feel is horror and sadness at what is happening to both sides in this conflict. (Other than feeling that the particular Hamas men who committed the 7th October atrocities are evidently evil and knowing that Netanyahu is very right wing of course.) I support a 2 state solution but know I don't understand all the complexities. I'd love a ceasefire but have no idea if that's possible or even advisable.

On this board and elsewhere on Mumsnet there are so many people who have come down very strongly on one side or the other and have lots of apparent evidence and knowledge to support their opinions. So, I'm wondering, if that's you, are you:
a) Israeli and/or Jewish or have family/friends who are?
b) Palestinian and/or Muslim or have family/friends who are?
c) Neither religion with no links to either country but have very clear opinions and lots of knowledge regardless.

I don't know where to go for accurate information or if knowing what I think is right or wrong even matters. I'm obsessively following the BBC but know it's probably not completely unbiased.

C
But it’s ‘personal’ in that I always struggled with the need for a Jewish homeland v sympathy for displaced Palestinians.
100% Zionist now.

Thank you, Lamelie. I totally get that view. On the surface, it does feel that the West carries a lot of blame on that but I agree a homeland was needed.

Edit: by on the surface, I mean that I don't know much, not saying that you don't.

I feel exactly like the OP - horror at what happened on October 7th / horror at the suffering of the Palestinians.
What I don’t understand is the mentality of those thousands who can take part in a pro Palestinian March just DAYS after the worst atrocity the Jewish people have faced since the Holocaust. I was truly shocked by that. Those marches - and the ripping down of the posters of hostages - have been very polarising .
Like the OP - I am Christian and am trying to become better informed. Many of the posters on here are very one sided and the information they provide is not completely trustworthy. But that’s what happens in war…
The only reliable true thing is that both sides are suffering and both sides include people who are guilty of terrible things.
But I’m wary of the people with really definite views. Eg - the ones who go on marches in support of one side (chanting etc) and tearing down posters - straight after 7/10 . Im also horrified by anyone who callously dismisses evidence of Israeli oppression of the Palestinians .

C (though not sure about my claim to “lots of knowledge” 😂)

I won’t say I’ve learnt nothing from my time on the board, I think I’ve got more of a sense of what’s going on than I would of from BBC reports, but you’re best bet is to do some reading (books I mean)

I would recommend:
The Palestine-Israeli Conflict by Dan Cohn Asher in and Dawoud El-Alami

Palestine 1938: The great revolt and the roots of the Middle East conflict by Oren Kessler

Those marches were initially very much billed as pro peace, pro ceasefire. I didn’t go but I can understand someone going along for the first one or even two but the last two have been very obviously pro Palestine and antisemitic. There’s an against antisemitism march tomorrow:

C, I understand Jewish people feel they need a homeland where they feel secure, however I can't accept that their need comes above others.
Also, Christian Palestinians have pretty much become extinct, perhaps why we don't hear so much about them.

Thank you for the book recommendations.

Good to know I'm not the only one feelinf helpless and clueless too!

@Struggggggling
Their need does come above others because of the holocaust.

@Lamelie I don't even know what to say to that
When we fall into the realm that some people deserve freedom more than others we start on a slippery slope towards racism.

@Lamelie

According to the data documentation of www.palestineremembered.com, Israelis controlled 774 towns and villages during the Nakba.

They destroyed 531 Palestinian towns and villages. Israeli forces atrocities also include more than 70 massacres against Palestinians killing 15,000 Palestinians during Nakba time.

I'm not saying Jews don't deserve to live in peace, but 15,000 Palestinians were killed in 1948 to "allow" this. Not to mention many thousands since and now we have the segregation and their gradual expulsion from the remaining Palestinian lands, not to mention the taking of their human rights and dignity.

So the persecution of Jewish people is wrong (agreed), but you are implying the murder and persecution of Palestinians is ok?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_casualties_of_war

I belong to category A. Jewish but with friends and family in Israel. I think the thing to bear in mind is that myself and a lot of other 'a' people are pro-Israel, not anti-Palestinian. I am here to offer a defence of Israel's right to defend itself, and defence against an awful lot of nonsensical accusations. There is also a lot of subtle (and some not so subtle) anti-Semitism on here which I'm obviously also going to disagree with.

I am not against anyone. I mean, obviously against Hamas and other terrorists, but I'm not against Palestinians or their need of a state of their own. An awful lot of people on here seem to be anti-Israel as well pro-Palestinian, which I'm personally finding very challenging to deal with. The focus is always on the past, never on how to move on from it.

I don't think you'll get a whole lot of genuinely good and unbiased reading recommendations on here. I'm not really sure what to suggest!

"The focus is always on the past, never on how to move on from it."

I agree with you to an extent on this, but also, since the things that went on in the past are still going on today (stealing of land, killings, oppression of human rights, other awful things) then they are as relevant to the situation now as they ever have been. So even if we saw the situation as it is now without reference to the past, we would still be talking about the same issues.

@Struggggggling
6 million Jews were exterminated because of their race so yes as a race they need a homeland.
@restabove I can’t see that figure in the table but of course not, no death is to be ok. What that table does show is decades of wars with many powers- Britain, Egypt, Lebanon and many casualties fighting over land but nothing like the holocaust where 6 million Jews were killed not for land, not for their actions but simply for who they were.

C. I am politically active and have been since I was a teenager. I'm against apartheid and have always had sympathy for the plight of Palestinians under Israeli occupation.

In my worst nightmares I could never have imagined seeing what we're seeing now though. And seeing people continuing to support and justify what Israel is doing at this stage of the conflict has been a very depressing and jarring eye opener.

My direct neighbours are Syrian muslim refugees and follow the "kind and gentle" path of Islam, not the "murder all Jews/Jews need to die" path of Islam. I also know many Muslims (we're in a highly populated area) who are very much anti-Jew, but to be honest they have always been very anti_West, anti-integrate etc so I'm not surprised by them.

I believe Jewish people and Palestinian people both deserve a homeland. What I sometimes wonder, these days, is whether the area of Israel/Palestine is actually big enough for two states. Israel offers a home to all Jewish people, and Palestine would like to offer a home to their diaspora. It's a lot of people. I don't have an answer to it, I just think the fact it's such a small area does not really help,

I agree with your comment that too many are focused on the past rather than on how a just peace can be secured for both sides.
I have family in Northern Ireland and I know it’s hard to let go of past injustices- but we only have peace in Northern Ireland because people from both communities chose to go for conciliation/ common ground rather than revenge and retribution . It wasn’t easy to achieve. Lots of people were unhappy that terrorists seemed to go unpunished as a result. But to achieve peace it’s better to focus on addressing current problems and creating conditions for a secure future rather than constantly referring to the past.

A Mix of B and C ,
Part of me is Middle Eastern , you grow up aware of the conflict in Palestine and the plight of the people . I guess it’s in our bones.
I grew up fascinated by the history And politics of the region , it’s so Ancient and rich and has so many layers . Places like Lebanon , Syria , Palestine , Jordan I feel they are terribly dismissed due to the ignorant biased media reporting ,

And Hamas would have to agree to live in peace with Israel.

I belong to category A. Jewish but with friends and family in Israel. I think the thing to bear in mind is that myself and a lot of other 'a' people are pro-Israel, not anti-Palestinian

Oh, absolutely, I get that. I 100% didn't mean to imply that a or b people are against any other group of individual, civilian people. I have seen some posts which suggest that some posters are either anti semitic or islamaphobic. But certainly not the majority.

@Lamelie The 15,000 came from the text from Palestineremembered.com. And many thousands since. (for data from just 2008 - sep 2023 see image)

It is truly horrific that many people were killed during the holocaust. We should have learned that this is never ok.

But you seem to be justifying the killing and oppression of the Palestinians based on the holocaust.

And let's not forget many Palestinians are murdered, tortured, jailed or injured because simply they are Palestinian, not just for their land and homes but due to racism. This is due to an ideology that demonises, dehumanises and says its ok to treat them as second class citizens, and ignores injustices towards them. That is not ok. (NB Neither are the actions and ideology of Hamas ok.)

As a result they are segregated, denied human rights, denied free trade, their land is stolen, their children are imprisoned and killed and worse.

The holocaust does not justify the oppression of another people in this way. (NB I am not saying Hamas is ok either!)

And because everyone was at the table to reach the agreement. Including the IRA.

I’m also in C although I can understand why Jewish people want a state of their own. I also agree that there is a lot of racism against Jewish people that is acceptable within society and this is even more heightened now.

However, I don’t understand why there isn’t much more upset from Israeli people about how Palestinians have and continue to be treated by various Israeli governments. It seems there is a lot of dismissing of factual information about the treatment of Palestinians that has been happening long before 7/10. Save the Children, UN etc have published many reports about the sometimes illegal and definitely immoral , treatment of Palestinians. I don’t think it’s fair to say the Jews experienced the holocaust and therefore, have a right to do whatever they want, as it seems to me. Their right to land doesn’t trump anyone else’s in my view. I would be really interested to hear from more Israelis and Jewish people about how they think a change in this mindset can be achieved.

You're also missing the bit where Israelis are living in constant fear of the next terror attack, wether that be a stabbing, suicide bomber or a massive attack like 7 weeks ago. There is a reason why Israel needs to protect its borders. It's not exactly an ideal situation on either side.

@Loveinacandle plenty of Israelis are upset with how Palestinians have been treated. Not sure why people keep on insisting that's not the case. If someone says they've done research into the situation, they'd know this. There is a need for a change in government on both sides. A complete do-over. And obviously an elimination of all terrorists. That is all. Easy enough, right? 🙃

There is a need for a change in government on both sides. A complete do-over. And obviously an elimination of all terrorists. That is all. Easy enough, right?

Well hopefully not impossible. I was saying on an earlier thread I bet both side wish they’d hadn’t fucked up the Oslo accord peace process. It’s going to be even harder now than it was then.