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Conflict in the Middle East

Be aware of misinformation seen regarding Palestine

914 replies

whatswrongwiththeworldddd · 13/11/2023 17:44

There's a lot of misinformation/propaganda spreading around and this thread is to raise awareness of the ones circulating. Here's one for example:

www.instagram.com/p/Czh2sF_LaUp/?igshid=anFmemQ3OGxpMGpu

Please share any you come across.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
96
FourCandlesNotForkHandles · 14/11/2023 15:00

Iwantcakeeveryday · 14/11/2023 12:58

I should have paid closer attention to your thread title, I mistakenly thought you were starting a thread about misinformation on the entire conflict, but you're not are you. Your post here shows clearly your agenda. Those people were victims of a terrorist organisation and to blame Israel is despicable. Hamas brutally massacred, raped and tortured them and are probably still doing so to any that remain alive.

If you look at The Times Of Israel the Israelis themselves have said they are not investigating rape and torture.

Until they do this is misinformation.

FourCandlesNotForkHandles · 14/11/2023 15:07

MonsieurCrapeau · 14/11/2023 14:16

Ironic that you’re saying this on a thread about misinformation.

Ironic that they’ve just announced it on the news

MCOut · 14/11/2023 15:51

@Iwantcakeeveryday on that I think there needs to be a very clear delineation between the events that took place right after October 7 and the Pro Palestine marches.

The first were abhorrent. There is very obviously a difference between violent resistance which targets the military, police or infrastructure, and that which targets civilians. I recognise that unfortunately, there may be participants in the marches who took part, but that cannot be a reason to delegitimise the voices of everybody else who just want to see a ceasefire and for their government to behave ethically.

ScrollingLeaves · 14/11/2023 15:53

MonsieurCrapeau · Today 14:16

“whatswrongwiththeworldddd · Today 13:44

A proportionate response wouldn't be to wipe out an entire race to take over their land. The IDF have outright admitted their task is to occupy, cleanse and make Gaza their own and they won't stop until they've completed their mission.”

Ironic that you’re saying this on a thread about misinformation.

It is not necessarily all misinformation. The prominent Israeli politician/finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, wrote a paper called the ‘Decisive Plan’ to resolve the Israeli Palestinian conflict once and for all.
In the plan he suggests among other things that all Gazans should emigrate to a tent camp in Egypt to start with, but then not come back. They should be given incentives to agree to this.

The actual document is within this article linked below. So even if someone might think the article is biased, the document can speak for itself. It itself is not misinformation.
https://www.972mag.com/smotrich-decisive-plan-israeli-public/

Here is more about this man in the New York Times March 2023.

This March headline reads:
”As Israel’s Crises Pile Up, a Far-Right Minister Is a Common Thread
Bezalel Smotrich, the finance minister, is a longtime advocate of contentious plans to overhaul the judiciary. He has also exacerbated tensions with Palestinians and Israel’s allies.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/31/world/middleeast/israel-smotrich-protests.html

Today an American politician Seth Moulton was recommending that all Gazans should be helped to leave in order to keep them safe, while Israel goes after Hamas, but they must be given assurance they will return.

This was in an interview by Al Jazeera on ‘Bottom Line’ :

“12:30
The Bottom Line
U.S. Congressman Seth Moulton argues that Israel is creating more future enemies by killing so many innocent civilians in Gaza.”

He was entirely sympathetic to the Gazan civilians, yet at the same time what he was advocating was basically using carrots to get them into Egypt, with what could easily prove to be false promises about a future return.

Who can promise they can go back later? Who would enforce that condition?

There would not be any guarantee of return. (Look at the unfulfilled promises of safe asylum to those Afghanistanis and their families who had helped the U.K. and U.S.)

It is easy to make ‘promises’ for the future. Palestinians already know from the Nakba that they would not go back.

People may distrust Al Jazeera but Seth Moulton was speaking for all to hear. There is no misinformation that he said what he said - all be it he meant it altruistically. Getting Palestinians out of Gaza is seen as an humanitarian aim in some quarters.

Here is Seth Moulton again in
this NBC article

www.nbcboston.com/news/local/moulton-urges-israel-to-make-tactical-change-and-help-civilians-out-of-gaza/3180735/

Read Moulton's full statement:
From the outset of this conflict, I have urged Israel to learn from America's successes and failures in the War on Terror. One of the best tactical and moral decisions our forces made was to urge civilians to evacuate cities like Najaf and Fallujah, giving them time to leave before clearing the area of terrorists. An estimated 90% of civilians left Fallujah before U.S. forces entered the city, limiting civilian casualties to a fraction of the number killed in Gaza already. Just as importantly, that strategy weakened the insurgency as some supporters gave up instead of fighting. U.S. Marines eliminated the rest.

The IDF should adopt a similar strategy. Fundamentally, it's not a so-called "humanitarian pause," as many have urged, which suggests temporary relief before going back to status quo, but a civilian evacuation, both of the hostages (through negotiation) and innocent Palestinians (through a surge of aid). In addition to providing safe corridors and safe harbor for fleeing civilians, humanitarian aid must be a continuous and integral part of Israel's military operation. This is another key lesson from Iraq and Afghanistan. By doing so, the IDF will demonstrate both to Palestinians and the rest of the world that it is living up to its commitment to protect Palestinian life. It will also starve Hamas of fighters and support.

This would be an important tactical change. Israel must provide a dramatic alternative to remaining in Northern Gaza, and they achieve that not with a minimum of aid but with a massive surge of aid to the South, enough to get civilians to leave despite Hamas' evil efforts to make them stay. The IDF must also show Palestinians that they will be safe where the aid is located, and I suspect Israel can win some international partners in that effort.

To be clear: getting the hostages out remains a top priority. With hostages scattered in tunnels throughout Gaza, saving them will come through diplomatic negotiations, not military means — another reason for Israel to pursue this approach.

Israel has the unequivocal right and responsibility to defend itself against terrorism. I am also deeply concerned by the reports of massive civilian casualties in Gaza.

Of course, if Hamas actually cared about the Palestinian people, the group would surrender before Israel has to go in and eliminate it. But since that is unlikely to happen, it's important for Israel to keep in mind another fundamental lesson we learned in Iraq and Afghanistan: that you can never create more terrorists than you kill. Civilian casualties ultimately help Hamas' recruiting. It is therefore both a moral and military imperative for Israel to reduce innocent suffering as it executes its operations moving forward.

The Israeli public has embraced the Smotrich doctrine

The internalization of the minister's 'Decisive Plan' is evident in the public support for a new ultimatum for Gaza: emigration or annihilation.

https://www.972mag.com/smotrich-decisive-plan-israeli-public

ScrollingLeaves · 14/11/2023 16:13

Here is the Al Jazeera interview with Seth Moulton on ‘Bottom Line’ today which I mentioned in my previous post.
https://www.aljazeera.com/program/the-bottom-line/2023/11/11/should-israel-learn-from-us-mistakes-in-iraq-and-afghanistan

Because of questions put to Seth Moulton by the interviewer, you can see more about where this idea of evacuation of Gaza
for humanitarian purposes might ultimately lead than you can from his statement quoted in my previous post from NBC.

Should Israel learn from US mistakes in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Rep. Seth Moulton says Israel is heading to a ‘Forever War’ by focusing on military solutions to political problems.

https://www.aljazeera.com/program/the-bottom-line/2023/11/11/should-israel-learn-from-us-mistakes-in-iraq-and-afghanistan

Xenia · 14/11/2023 16:44

Sometimes disputes have to be resolved with a lot of compromise and even land division eg India and Pakistan - partition was not perfect but it was a way to deal with a difficult situation with people moving in various directions. Some of my ancestors had to leave Scottish lands (clearances) - I doubt I will be getting land from Scotland although may be I will have a claim.

EasterIssland · 14/11/2023 16:46

Remember when Israel claim that hamas had stolen the fuel they had delivered to a hospital and the hospital said they had no clue what fuel they were talking about ?? Well was a lie , what a surprise! Can’t Israel see that their credibility is close to null?

https://twitter.com/SaeedDiCaprio/status/1724442805966160210

Be aware of misinformation seen regarding Palestine
Be aware of misinformation seen regarding Palestine
notsoready4school · 14/11/2023 17:06

Alcemeg · 14/11/2023 12:53

This is how I feel too, let alone the open celebrations of 7 October in the streets.

As you can see, though, MN is overrun with posters who will insist it was all perfectly justified, unlike Israel's response.

I'm not Jewish or Israeli, by the way... just allergic to bullying.

‘ allergic to bullying’ is a strong stance. Does that mean you were at the pro Palestine marches pre 7/10? Or do your allergies have specific symptoms?

Humdingerydoo · 14/11/2023 17:33

Here we go again. "Proportional response". What would a proportional response from Israel have been?

In 2011 Israel exchanged one kidnapped soldier (who had been held hostage by Hamas for 5 years) for 1027 prisoners. No one complained it wasn't proportional. So therefore I assume Israel has a right to kidnap 240 (or whatever the most up-to-date figure is) x 1027? So over 240000.

Proportionality isn't a thing in a war against terrorists.

Alcemeg · 14/11/2023 17:35

notsoready4school · 14/11/2023 17:06

‘ allergic to bullying’ is a strong stance. Does that mean you were at the pro Palestine marches pre 7/10? Or do your allergies have specific symptoms?

I'm talking about bullying on MN, where any comment not conforming to the "Fuck Israel" narrative is met with derision, hostility, and facile insinuations (such as your question here).

FourCandlesNotForkHandles · 14/11/2023 17:38

EasterIssland · 14/11/2023 16:46

Remember when Israel claim that hamas had stolen the fuel they had delivered to a hospital and the hospital said they had no clue what fuel they were talking about ?? Well was a lie , what a surprise! Can’t Israel see that their credibility is close to null?

https://twitter.com/SaeedDiCaprio/status/1724442805966160210

Blimey.!
They haven’t even got the sense to use someone that’s unknown.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 14/11/2023 18:07

In 2011 Israel exchanged one kidnapped soldier (who had been held hostage by Hamas for 5 years) for 1027 prisoners

Errr - HOW many?? Confused

As you suggested, so much for proportionality, which doesn't work when dealing with terrorists anyway

Alcemeg · 14/11/2023 18:37

Puzzledandpissedoff · 14/11/2023 18:07

In 2011 Israel exchanged one kidnapped soldier (who had been held hostage by Hamas for 5 years) for 1027 prisoners

Errr - HOW many?? Confused

As you suggested, so much for proportionality, which doesn't work when dealing with terrorists anyway

Quite.

I vaguely remember this being on the news at the time. There's a Wiki entry about it. About 280 of those released in exchange had been imprisoned for acts of terrorism, and of course an awful lot of them went on to commit more...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Shalit_prisoner_exchange

Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Shalit_prisoner_exchange

Livelovebehappy · 14/11/2023 18:52

FourCandlesNotForkHandles · 14/11/2023 15:00

If you look at The Times Of Israel the Israelis themselves have said they are not investigating rape and torture.

Until they do this is misinformation.

But there are videos seen by multiple journalists which show the poor Israeli girl who was raped and murdered, being paraded naked round the streets in Gaza being spat on by Palestinians. Just because you haven’t had the experience of seeing these videos, it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. I know you might not want to admit it happened, but it’s misinformation in itself to deny it happened, when there is evidence out there that it did….

FourCandlesNotForkHandles · 14/11/2023 19:06

Livelovebehappy · 14/11/2023 18:52

But there are videos seen by multiple journalists which show the poor Israeli girl who was raped and murdered, being paraded naked round the streets in Gaza being spat on by Palestinians. Just because you haven’t had the experience of seeing these videos, it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. I know you might not want to admit it happened, but it’s misinformation in itself to deny it happened, when there is evidence out there that it did….

If you read Israel’s own report in the aftermath you will see for yourself.
No one is disputing they were killed

eardefender · 14/11/2023 19:09

I have seen a few videos i thought were fake of children. I have young kids and they didn't look right to me. One actually looked like a doll and one the child looked fine just painted with something that didn't look like blood. The IDF have also posted videos of the same man being used in various videos and in various roles.
Hamas first layer is hostages, second layer is civilians, third is international propaganda and censoring the news so it creates a narrative that means the public in the west put pressure on their governments to stop the bombardment. Hamas are clever they know that they can exploit western guilt and racism that muslims/brown people are victims and not clever enough to manipulate them.

whatswrongwiththeworldddd · 14/11/2023 19:13

@Iwantcakeeveryday there has been a march in the US to show solidarity with Israel and the victims of 7/10

www.nytimes.com/2023/11/14/us/march-for-israel-washington-dc-rally.html

OP posts:
Iwantcakeeveryday · 14/11/2023 19:14

FourCandlesNotForkHandles · 14/11/2023 15:00

If you look at The Times Of Israel the Israelis themselves have said they are not investigating rape and torture.

Until they do this is misinformation.

I read it on the BBC! A police spokesperson says they are investigating multiple cases.
*13:47
Israel festival attack survivor says she saw Hamas rape woman

Lucy Williamson
Reporting from Israel
Warning: This article contains distressing content
Police have shown journalists a single horrific testimony from a woman who was at the Nova festival site during the 7 October attack.
At least 260 people were killed when Hamas gunmen fired rockets and then stormed the festival in the early hours of the morning.
Others were kidnapped and taken hostage into Gaza.
The woman described seeing Hamas fighters mutilate a woman while raping her, and said that one of her attackers then shot her in the head as he continued to rape her.
Israel’s police commissioner Yaacov Shabtai told the BBC after the briefing that this was not a one-off testimony. The nature of some of the violence was hard to speak about, he said.
"You heard how they cut part of the body between one rape and another,” he said. "So you understand those guys came to do something: it’s not the rape, it’s to insult the human being."The commissioner also suggested that investigators were relying on footage shot by Hamas to determine what had happened in some cases.
Those involved in the investigation said many of the areas where the attacks took place were still active combat zones during the crucial 48-hour window when forensic evidence for sexual assault should be obtained.
DNA was taken from bodies arriving at the main army base for identification, but police say the main focus initially was on identifying the dead, and informing families.
The head of one unit charged with collecting evidence said there were "no known living victims" of sexual assault that they could currently identify, but many of those who survived the attacks are reportedly too traumatised to give evidence.
So far, there’s little sense of the scale of sexual violence carried out by Hamas during the October attacks, but a police spokesman said they were looking into “multiple” cases.*

FourCandlesNotForkHandles · 14/11/2023 19:20

Iwantcakeeveryday · 14/11/2023 19:14

I read it on the BBC! A police spokesperson says they are investigating multiple cases.
*13:47
Israel festival attack survivor says she saw Hamas rape woman

Lucy Williamson
Reporting from Israel
Warning: This article contains distressing content
Police have shown journalists a single horrific testimony from a woman who was at the Nova festival site during the 7 October attack.
At least 260 people were killed when Hamas gunmen fired rockets and then stormed the festival in the early hours of the morning.
Others were kidnapped and taken hostage into Gaza.
The woman described seeing Hamas fighters mutilate a woman while raping her, and said that one of her attackers then shot her in the head as he continued to rape her.
Israel’s police commissioner Yaacov Shabtai told the BBC after the briefing that this was not a one-off testimony. The nature of some of the violence was hard to speak about, he said.
"You heard how they cut part of the body between one rape and another,” he said. "So you understand those guys came to do something: it’s not the rape, it’s to insult the human being."The commissioner also suggested that investigators were relying on footage shot by Hamas to determine what had happened in some cases.
Those involved in the investigation said many of the areas where the attacks took place were still active combat zones during the crucial 48-hour window when forensic evidence for sexual assault should be obtained.
DNA was taken from bodies arriving at the main army base for identification, but police say the main focus initially was on identifying the dead, and informing families.
The head of one unit charged with collecting evidence said there were "no known living victims" of sexual assault that they could currently identify, but many of those who survived the attacks are reportedly too traumatised to give evidence.
So far, there’s little sense of the scale of sexual violence carried out by Hamas during the October attacks, but a police spokesman said they were looking into “multiple” cases.*

A report from just a few days ago by the doctors verifying the victims many of which they still have confirmed they are not investigating rape etc.

In The Times of Israel

Iwantcakeeveryday · 14/11/2023 20:07

I just showed you a report from today which says they are. Why would you disbelieve it or call it misinformation? Are you saying you don't believe the woman's testimony journalists were shown?

FourCandlesNotForkHandles · 14/11/2023 20:15

Iwantcakeeveryday · 14/11/2023 20:07

I just showed you a report from today which says they are. Why would you disbelieve it or call it misinformation? Are you saying you don't believe the woman's testimony journalists were shown?

It can’t be verified.
Dont you get it.
Israel had rape kits
The doctors were told not to test.

Why not test to verify……..mmmmm…..oooo……let me think!!
Its not rocket science.

EnoughIsay · 14/11/2023 20:17

MonsieurCrapeau · 13/11/2023 18:48

Anti-Semitic attacks have increased by 1000%. I can’t count the number of posts sneering about ‘the Jews’ feeling afraid. The anti-semitism is so near the surface and this conflict is giving it air. I am in various groups and the vitriol, calling for Israel to be wiped off the map, is awful.

Edited

I am in various groups and the vitriol, calling for Israel to be wiped off the map, is awful.

This is an interesting statement.

I have no doubt that leval of conversation is very heated at the moment.

Calling for Israel to be wipped off the map is indeed terrible but is just words.

Israel in the meantime is actually wiping Palestinians off the map.

Actually doing it.

On all the threads where I have read, with interest, your comments in this past month I have not seen one that gives even a cursory nod to the reality of the situation.

A bully threatenting to hit someone is scary indeed.

Gettting a fist in the face can kill.

Slightly different no?

EnoughIsay · 14/11/2023 20:20

Ballsbaill · 13/11/2023 18:48

Exactly ffs this is nothing to do with us.

Why don't you go and campaign against all the other wars. There are 32 last time I looked.

It's just weird the obsession by those with no skin in the game.

When Russia invaded Ukraine people protested.

People opened their homes and took in refugees.

We do campaign against other wars.

And then some.

We have skin in the game because our government endorses what Israel is doing but, a large amount of the people who elected them do not.

EnoughIsay · 14/11/2023 20:26

Xenia · 13/11/2023 19:23

War is ugly. People did. had Hamas not invaded Israel Hamas would not have brought this down upon its people. It knew what it was doing. It is reaping what it sowed.

What Hamas did was unforgivable.

What Isreal is now doing is worse.

It is genocide.

EnoughIsay · 14/11/2023 20:30

Teentaxidriver · 13/11/2023 19:45

TerryPratchett - I’d really like to talk properly about …. how hard you try to hide your antisemitism. Sadly though it is still there, lurking under the fluffy, supposedly decent, trying to appear reasonable language. Questioning whether there really has been a rise in antisemitism, minimising it by likening it to general racism [it isn’t like racism or do you not get that? They are an ethnoreligious group], pretending you thought calling them “the Jews” is acceptable nomenclature, alluding to the desire for the destruction of Israel but admitting that since it is their only homeland maybe that isn’t ok. Hiding in plain sight.

This is absolutely disgraceful.

If I were TerryPrachette I would ask Mumsnet to ban you permanently.

TerryPrachette is a long term, very decent poster who, unlike you,always engages on the merit of the argument and never attacks the person.

Shame on you.