This much we can agree on!

[HeidiInTheBigCity]

Another attempt at - to unashamedly quote Tracy Chapman: "if not now, then WHEN?"

Can we please have a thread about things we can all actually subscribe to? Respectful disagreements welcome! Bold proposals welcome!

I shall start:

1. All children are innocent and inherently deserve our compassion, our advocacy, our voices - whoever and whereever they are - on the grounds that they are too young to be punished for whatever their parents or grandparents have done!
2. Ordinary people - regardless of their political opinions - must not be punished for the actions of their leaders unless they have demonstrably and personally engaged in activity that supports the same (a.k.a. "I would prefer not to be punished for what Rishi says and does!").
3. Antisemitism is categorically wrong!
4. Islamophobia is categorically wrong"
5. Anti-Palestinianism is categorically wrong!

Don't believe everything you are told here in the UK. Our government is in the USAs pocket. The USA are the biggest supporters of Israel. Money runs the world. Go figure.

How does betraying your own values make you a good person op?

Bad phrasing on my part: What I meant was "you are probably actually a good person [do not let yourself be compromised, stick to your values, not ideology]".

Ah ok. I don't agree with you though. I don't think you can be a good person and let your values be compromised so much that you believe an attack on 1400 people justifies killing 8000 on the other side. And keep adding to the 8000.

I have one. When you use dehumanising language, you become less empathetic.

Collateral damage
Human shield
Gazans
Causalities

Children. As loved and cared for and wanted and cherished as the ones asleep in my house. And the mums and dads sniffed their heads and kissed their feet and worried and tucked them in. Just as many times as I have.

When aid agencies around the world agree on one thing they can't all be wrong.

Unless chanting the vile 'from the rivers to the seas...' clearly wanting to ethnically cleanse all Jews from Israel.

I agree with this but Hamas has said no it won't stop attacks on Israel until all Israelis are dead and they don't care how many Palestinian martyrs they make.

Refugee camps should not be targeted.

I think its obvious who is doing the ethnic cleansing @caringcarer but good try

anti-Israeli people is also wrong. Normal Israelis who have been terrified by October 7th and all the babies and women who were kidnapped - they are also innocent. They are NOT the government.

It goes both ways!!! Hamas have openly said they want to murder all Jews and destroy Israel. Ok so Israel havent said it but they are clearly doing it.

Both are wrong!

We all know hamas will never have the capabilities eg. financial backing, to wipe out Israel. No matter what, its totally obvious.

Saying that on repeat to atone for the carpet bombing of civilians doesn't wash at all. There is no excuse whatsoever and never will be.

True.

And @caringcarer there are a lot of threads for arguing. This one is trying to find common ground. If you want to argue, please go to any one of the tens of threads you can do that on.

Unless you think consensus is useless and entrenched positions are more of what we need.

Oil exists in the Levantine Basin.

Agreed. And there's a whole "I drink your milkshake" aspect to it.

And it would very much suit Western Democracies if Israel controlled all the oil and gas.

This isn't in the spirit of this thread so I won't bite but read the room. It's nice to be in a thread where we don't descend into accusations. There are more you can join in on if that's what you want to do.

✌️

Why are there Palestinian refugees inside Palestine?

@PurpleChrayne they're refugees from other areas of what was Palestine.

That kind of statement from Mowlam is best described as the propaganda of the peace process.

Our reality was that the political settlement was accepted once PIRA was at their weakest point. That can only be done by arresting plus killing enough of them in tandem with the intelligence infiltration.

So, the actual approach is the military involvement to create a stable environment where terrorist murders decreases over time whilst the political wing is heavily pressurised by Government over time as well.

Until they finally accept what they'd always rejected. PIRA always understood this acceptance to constitute defeat.

Because the IDF has bombed them out of their own homes (and then bombed the refugee camps where they are sheltering).

Yup. Internally displaced people.

www.unhcr.org/about-unhcr/who-we-protect/internally-displaced-people

They are often the descendants of those who were displaced in 1948 who are entitled to UN support (grandchildren and great grandchildren of those who were displaced.) Some of the refugee camps have existed since the 1950s. There are generations of people who have never been displaced but who are officially refugees.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee_camps

Perhaps there should be a return to the 1946 borders?