Secondary Infertility and IVF

[Wigglesmummy]

Can anyone advise? We have 1 lovely son now 3 conceived in about 3 weeks. A miscarriage last year and trying (since then) for 18 months. Just found out my husband has a sperm count of 3 million - so low the consultant couldn't believe it. Lucky he has met our son! Only chance now for a second is ICSI. Problem is that I am not sure I can - call me a coward (and I am) but the idea of the injections not to mention the effect of the drugs themselves, scares me stupid. What will it do to me, our life, our son? So my question - has anyone any advice to improve sperm count. Has anyone else faced anything similar and what helped them make up their minds. Is IVF always awful? How much variation is there between clinics as to drug regimes, types etc. Sorry stabbing in the dark as I seem to have so many questions I don't know where to start

Hi, have been reading this thread and thought I'd say hi to you all

Earplugs, I've had one of those AMH/egg reserve tests done privately, and it cost about £80 I think. Takes 2 weeks for the results to come back, and the test can be done on any day of your cycle and the results are valid for a year

I'm suffering from secondary infertility too, but needed IVF to have DD (3) anyway, so it isn't a huge surprise. I'm undergoing IVF again just now, but have just hit 40 so time is running out for us and IVF. I've massive tubal issues on my one remaining tube, so natural conception just isn't on for us I'm afraid.

Hi Only, thanks for the info, that isn't as much money as I thought it might be! (still not pennies but at least not hundreds!).
Can I ask where you went to have it done?

Very best of luck with your IVF, are you having that done at a private clinic as well?

Just wanted to post a positive story. I really do understand, having ttc No 2 for nearly 3 years. DH had a v high count but poorish morphology and I had a mc at around a year of ttc. Anyway, after some surgery for endometriosis (which I didn't know I had) we were due to start IVF last Jan....yes, another one who go pg just in time! DD2 born in October and is a delight.

The age gap between the baby and DD1 is 5.5 years - not at all what I had planned - but it is great! She is absolutely lovely with the baby, ultra proud to show her off at school and genuinely helpful. During the rubbish colic evenings she offers to forgo her story and get herself to bed so I can make sure the baby is ok.

So what I am trying to say is: hang on in there. It does suck, last NYE I was utterly depressed about it all - this one was so different. Plus big age gaps can be a blessing in disguise.

Good luck to all. Hoping that by NYE 2010 you have #2 at least underway, by whatever means.

Thanks Earplugs for the kind words. Funny how the start of a new year always seems to make things feel a bigger problem for a little while.

Hello Only, good luck with your IVF. I hope it happens quickly for you.

Good to hear a positive story Headabovewater, congratulations on your new arrival.

Nothing exciting for me, was reading the preseed thread and thought I'd give it a go. I've just bought the Boots Conceive plus stuff so I'll need to try that first I guess.

Happy New Year everyone.

Hi everyone. When I started this I felt so confused and so alone - and its amazing how many of us there are. Not actually that that is a good thing, but it does help (me at any rate. Sure you're all glad to know your misfortune makes me feel better...! Hope you know what I mean or you've just stomped off and will never post again).
Age gap is very interesting - thanks Headabovewater. DH and his brother are 4 and half years apart and I always thought that was huge and weird - but they have always got on brilliantly.
Good luck Only and Lily - nice to meet you. Rant any time you like! Lily know what you mean, I think the effort of trying to get info from GP/ consultant/ whoever is the worst bit as it just makes you feel so powerless and processed. They just don't seem to understand what you need to know and that makes you feel stupid and therefore worse and more emotional etc. Hang on in there.
Earplugs - yes cold much better by Christmas (although MIL constant refrain of "I think W is getting a cold' (when I thought I was much better) didn't really help). We have otherwise been having a lovely time (hence silence). Relaxed family time and DS has been wonderful. Its really helped me with accepting whatever happens. The 3 of us are a great unit so even though he would love a sibling (as we would), we would have a good time whatever.
Oh and DH barely drinks (about 3 units a week) so not much to give up there so haven't asked. He has given up baths and is trying to avoid sitting all day. How did NYE go?

Hi All,
Thanks for the positive post headabove, it is really good to hear that things can happen naturally even when the odds appear to be stacked against us.

Glad to hear you had a great time Wiggles, I also feel a lot more relaxed and even, dare I say it, a bit more positive having spent some quality time together as a family. So onwards and upwards as they say. DH didn't have a drop to drink NYE which was amazing, and he didn't even complain!

Lilly I've tried the Pre-Conceive as I hardly get any CM (sorry for TMI!) and thought it might help. This was before we got DH's results back I hasten to add. Never quite worked out how you were meant to 'get it up there' without any additional equipment, which obviously wasn't supplied so figure that it wasn't mean to be inserted like the pre-seed applicators but don't know for sure. The formulation looks quite impressive though from what they say on their web site (they claim even better than pre-seed)but then again, they are hardly going to tell us its crap! Let us know how you get on.

Just for info for those wanting to improve sperm counts, I've been reading about a supplement called Pycnogenol which is a pine bark extract. Apparently it is a very strong antioxidant and had been shown to have a very positive effect on both counts and morphology. If you google it brings up lots of info.

Pycnogenol sounds interesting - worth a go and not hideously expensive ... We have been taking Fertility Blend - it helped my cycle massively (will not explain as definitely too much info!) so I forced DH to join me with that - as it was blended with 1 thing in mind I thought it might help him as much. It is £25 each per month though, which starts to feel rather a lot and I'm not sure that the bloke one has as much of the good stuff as other cheaper versions.
Will review ...

Hello everyone, we seem to have ourselves a lovely little coven in here now!!! Thanks for starting the thread wiggle I've been needing something like this for ages now. I know what you mean about enjoying being a family of three, I do feel like that at times too and it makes me wonder why I want to rock the boat.

Earplugs I have taken the bull by the horns with the conceive plus stuff and have been inserting it (sorry tmi for some). I got a couple of syringes from work and just filled them and did the deed. It sort of feels like it's helping but I can't possibly imagine why I feel that it is, maybe it's just because I'm actually doing something!

Interesting about the pycnogenol, I'm going to check it out.

Glad to hear everyone has had an enjoyable Christmas. It was lovely to have a white christmas, but I'm fed up with the snow now! At least it is keeping my DH at home for more of the necessary

Yes it is great to have our own little coven! I was always a bit frightened of the huge buses so this great.

The Fertility Blend looks good Wiggle but you're right, they are not cheap and the money soon racks up as the months go by. I had been recommended the Zita West supplement or the Maralyn Glenville but I thought both were overpriced and when you look at what they contain, its no different to the normal stuff you can pick up in Boots. So i did! Have been taking the Femmibion ones purely because they are the only ones I have found that don't contain iron as it gives me horrendous constipation! (TMI alert from me again.

I've got DH on the Wellman and have ordered some of the pycnogenol so I'll let you know how it goes.

The Pre-Conceive is quite watery isn't it Lilly? I'm not a lubricant expert (funnily enough!)but I was suprised how very runny it is.

Pretty fed up of the snow now for sure. I hate driving in it so have been working from home which is impossible with DS home. Just wish it would go so that we can get back to normal.

I sometimes also wonder why I want to rock the boat by having DC2. I was never an 'Earth Mother' type with DS, had horrible pregnancy, terrible birth and found it all very overwhelming, exhausting and quite frightening. But, bit by bit they get older and you become more confident and I sort of feel like I want to try out all the knowledge that i've gained on another DC! I'm sure I'm also suffering from selective memory loss because there are times I swore I would never want to do it all again, and here I am just wishing for the chance!

Oh I love a coven. feels very cosy
Just been getting all 'whatever will be, will be' about it all when DH results finally arrived in the post (we have been hassling since 8 December so pretty poor). Whether it was seeing them in writing (instead of hearing the consultant tell us) or whether they really are worse than I believed I'm not sure but was a bit of a shock and its made me feel very cheated. Coinciding with the whole BDing thing also not helpful. All sorts of awful people have children they don't want and DH is a fantastic dad - its just not right.
Come back tomorrow for a return to normal service and greater positivity. Just a bit knocked for 6 today.
Luckily any further treatment would be with a different clinic so at least we don't have to worry about the general crapness of this one ...
Is it too early for a gin? Fear it may be - although in France its nearly time ...

My gin cut-off (or should that be start-point) is usually 5pm, but this is an exceptional circumstance.

Hurray, we have a 'minibus' now. I couldn't ever settle with the big buses either.

Oh, Wiggle sorry to hear it's all a bit crap at the moment. It is definitly not too early for gin! I have actually been terrible over Christmas at trying to be all 'healthy conception diet' and alcohol free. I must try harder this month, after I've had gin with you. Make mine a double! When do you have your next clinic appointment? How is your DP taking the news?

Hi Huckabees, nice to see you.

Earplugs keep us posted on the pycnogenol. If it gets a good review I might give it a go. All I can say about the preconceive stuff is that little goes a long way!

Has anoyne tried acupuncture (you or you DP?) I was thinking of giving it a try...but I'm not sure about the pointy things though!

Hi lily - I posted earlier in the thread, but as you will see, no 2 no longer an option for me, but I've been checking in to see how everyone is getting on.

We're all allowed to feel crap Wiggle so just indulge in whatever takes the edge off for the time being. From my experience its never to early for a Gin, infact I've got a bottle of tonic left over from Xmas, I may just join you in a little one as a Friday night unwinder!

I think this journey is always going to be a rollercoaster, there are going to be positive days and down days. We just have to hope the down ones don't last that long. File the report away and don't torture yourself by constantly looking at it. Those results were then (quite a while ago) and this is now. And you've made lots of positive changes since then so who knows!

I do still find it really odd this whole secondary infertility thing. I mean, how can so many couples fall pregnant so easily first time and then have so many problems a second. Can it really be that much of 'lucky strike' that it happened first time round? Just doesn't make sense to me.

Lily, I have been having acupuncture the past few weeks. I was worried also but it isn't painful. Am trying to get DH to go as well but he isn't that taken with the idea.
I'll give anything a go me, can you tell

Thank you everyone - gin went down well here too. If I'd been more organised I'd have offered you all a sour cream and chive Pringle as well. I think they've changed the recipe and I don't like them so much - or are my tastes maturing.
Earplugs don't believe in having bottles of tonic 'left over' - never happens in our house ... Thanks for the up message. And yes I agree - I was musing this morning on my snowy dog walk - why can it be so different first and second times. I did read somewhere that it 'always' (presumably nearly always) takes longer second time out. What really happens? Are there lots of blokes out there who manage 2 lucky strikes? But then I suppose if we knew that we'd be Robert WInston and millionaires.
On acupuncture, I tried it and had a really unusual bad reaction - so have been advised not to try it again. That means there is no way on this planet I will get DH anywhere near it BUT the acupuncturist who I thought was great, did suggest that it was extremely good for men too and can really help to treat as a couple. She also recommended that men should try to get outside for a walk for half an hour each day to avoid the overheating and connect with the great outdoors - (you can do with that last bit what you want - but walking about makes sense to me). So for what its worth that's my bit

Oooh blimey Wiggle, what type of reaction did you have with acupuncture if you don't mind me asking? That sounds really quite frightening! I've only had one noticeable reaction when she put a needle in my wrist and it sent very strong shooting pains & pins and needles into my hand, it wasn't nice but she managed to tweak it and it eased off. Haven't had it with any of the other points or in fact with that point again.

The advice about outdoor walking sounds very sensible for the men although I'd have my work cut out getting DH out in this weather!

Also something occured to me the other night that I forgot to mention about your test results. You probably know it already but the WHO guidlines for semen analysis changed in Dec 09 and the 'acceptable limits' have been significantly lowered. Rather than 20 million count, its now 14 or something. I've got the new limits on our report, if you haven't already got them ( or anyone else), let me know and I'll put them up. Doesn't change our results, but can make the target just a little closer to reach.

Hi Huckabees, I'm so pleased you are still around. I had a question that I didn't ask last time but wish I had. You mentioned that your problems were down to scarring, can I ask if this was anything to do with cervical scarring at all? (Don't need to answer this if too personal).
The reason I ask is that I had a cervical tear during the delivery of DS which was repaired in theatre. Haven't had any problems since but wondered if this may also have an effect on my ability to conceive? Not even sure what the docs could do to find out?

Starting to think I could switch brain off of TTC thoughts before I come up with any more potential problems!

Think its called needle shock. As soon as she put in the first needle it hurt unbearably. I managed to tolerate another 5!!!! but wouldn't let her do the last 4. By then I was in so much pain I couldn't stop crying and didn't dare move as it made it hurt even more. Gave it 5 minutes to 'settle' and then begged her to take them out. Promptly went into shock - freezing cold and shaking. Not something I could even contemplate again. And yes acupuncturist was someone I felt comfortable with and was properly registered in good clinic and recommended. She was pretty gobsmacked too but did say it was a known but very rare reaction.
But if it works for you!! I don't normally tell people unless they have tried acupuncture and know its OK for them as I do think acupuncture is a good thing - just not for me. Like being allergic to something that is good for other people.
Thanks for the details about the change in targets - we haven't found that. Does make the chances per month even without improvement seem a bit less impossible. If you feel like typing the new details in that would be great - ours def had the old ones

Hi all. Thanks for all the acupuncture stories. I'm still mulling it over, mostly due to the associated cost to be honest. I never knew that it was possible to have a reaction like yours Wiggle. Forewarned is forearmed and all that I guess.

I would be interested in seeing the new guideline limits earplugs. DH has to put another sample in soon, but he is really dragging his feet about it. I think he maybe doesn't want to know the results conclusively.

Hi huckabees. Nice that you came back to see how we were. You've made a brave decision. I'm begining to wonder if we are not too far off being in the same place tbh. I'm not at the months stage but maybe just another year I think, then I'll probably call it a day. I've had 1 mc in 2 years (and I would suspect some others that really didn't get far too). It keeps me thinking that there is really something not right genetically. Keep hoping we'll get lucky again though. I wonder if you can pay for genetic testing privately?

Hmm

Crikey Wiggle, that sounds horrific you must have been terrified. Just goes to show that actually it can be a powerful thing, must admit I have been a tad sceptical wondering if its effects are all in the mind,but that reaction certainly wasn't! I know what you mean about the cost though lilly, mine charges 30 pounds for an hour which is quite reasonable compared to some, but if you double that for both me and DH, 60 is far too much to shell out each week.

Right anyhow ladies,2009 WHO references published Dec below. Just wanted to say no idea how they come to these figures, seems quite odd that they are able to lower the limits but guess there must be science behind it...

Volume: 1.5 ml or more
pH: 7.2 - 8.0
Total Motility: 40% or more
Progressive: 32% or more
Vitality(%live) 58% or more
Antisperm Antibodies IgA: less than 10
IgG: Less than 10
Count per ml: 15 million or more
Total Count in ejaculate: 39 million or more
Other Cells - Round cells: less than 5
Polymorphonuclear leucocytes: less than 1
Morphology: Kruger Strict Criteria: 4 or more
Teratozoospermia Index: 1.6 or less

ThanksEarplugs for the stats - something new to obsess about, Google repeatedly etc. I suppose it shows that no one really knows and that 2% of 3 million can still be enough for the job in hand - hence all the stories about getting pregnant just before starting IVF.
Re acupuncture I understand it is terribly rare so maybe the fact that you have heard from me will mean there is no chance of it happening to you! And paying £52 for the privilege of the most terrifying experience of my life still rankles!

Earplugs, my scarring is apparently all over the place . My cervix is fine, but my right ovary is about 6 cm out of place and stuck to my stomach wall with an adhesion (so any eggs coming from that side are not going anywhere near my Fallopian tubes. Large adhesion where my C Section scar is and some other adhesion which meant the consultant couldn't even get his camera in position to view my left ovary (I had a laparoscopy).
They also did the die test thing (hysterosalopingogram, I think it's called - can't believe I remembered that) where they squirt purple die into your Fallopian tubes and see if it comes out the other end. He said nothing came out so my tubes are very likely blocked too (more scarring?) although sometimes the muscles just contract and that stops any die getting through.
I had a bit of a complicated C section with DS, as he had got well and truly stuck in my pelvis and so there was quite a lot of pushing from below and heavy duty tugging from above to remove him, and the incision they'd made in my womb tore and so was extended by a few inches.
There was also a bit of a panic when it sounded as if the junior doctor who was assisting in the surgery, and who had been doing the 'pushing baby's head from below' was going to put her hands inside me i.e. into the incision and I heard the anaesthetist saying 'No, you can't go back in the field'. Not sure whether she had already done that and possibly passed on some infection somehow. Anyway, I suspect my body was more than usually traumatised, hence the scarring, but I guess I'll never know. I had my DS in the USA, so don't have any copies of my medical files - tried to get them but the hospital was useless, so I gave up in the end.
It is one of those situations where you can go around wondering whether the doctors made a mistake, whether I made a mistake (not allowing them to section me when they first wanted to and trying for a further 1.5 hours to push him out - well, actually that was my husband that did that, thinking that's what I wanted, when by that point I would have done anything for the whole labour/giving birth thing to be over - LOL), or whether it would have happened anyway.
But at the end of the day, it's happened and I have to live with it, and, as I said in my first post, deciding to move on from it has made me stronger I think.
Oops, sorry if that was TMI, and for offloading the birth story - haven't told that one for a while.
Feel free to ask any questions. I know exactly what you are all going through. It's hard, but you'll get through it whatever the outcome, and it does get easier.

By the way, it's DS's birthday tomorrow (how ironic is that after telling his whole birth story) and he wants to get up an hour earlier than usual so he has time to play with his presents before school. So I'm off to set the alarm and will enjoy a long leisurely breakfast, if I'm awake enough, instead of the usual scrabble and run.

Goodness Huckabees that is some story. Thank you and happy birthday for DS - hope all his presents were just what he wanted.
Sure you don't but one of my concerns is that I will spoil DS if he is the only one. Maybe will just have to spoil myself...
Dread him going to school at the moment (v selfish) - it isn't until 2011 so I am being daft but its at the forefront at the moment as we are trying to look into schools in plenty of time as he may not get into the good local one as its so popular and all his friends from the village will go there as they have siblings there. It kills me to think he'd go somewhere else knowing no one at all.
Had the letter from the IVF clinic today. Just made me feel like a number all over again. All I want is to talk to someone about the theory and the reality of it - not have 100 more blood tests and another ultrasound (that would be the 4th in 3 months) when all these things have been done at least twice in the last 6 months. Reading the guidance notes - pretty sure I can't go through with it but don't want to decide for my husband as well. DH soooooo busy at work I can't disturb him and won't get home this evening before I have a committee meeting here this evening so no idea when we will be able to talk about it. Just want to sit down and bawl now. Must be hormonal - great timing as AF due any day!

Wiggle, poor you, that sounds rough. Just remember, there's no easy answer as to whether to go ahead, so don't beat yourself up about 'making the right choice'. The choice itself isn't the key, it's your attitude to the choice once you've made it. Hope that doesn't sound preachy.

We were lucky with schools as we are in Scotland, and most people simply go to their own catchment school here, and you're supposed to be guaranteed a place (it doesn't always work out, but usually does). Some people ask for placing requests but it's not the norm. My DS is now in Primary 3, so I've got used to him going off every day and having the day to myself - it has allowed me to explore quite a few things. I work part-time, I did an OU course, I joined the gym - usual stuff really, and although I did miss him at first, it is nice to get a bit of my old identity back (I think most SAHM mums would agree with me on this).

As for DS being an only and getting spoiled, I don't know whether he is or not. I probably don't stress as much as some about how I'm going to pay for things like swimming lessons or new shoes, but re toys and so on, I think he's probably somewhere in the middle. I think your own family values tend to kick in in this respect. I was more worried about making sure life didn't become 'all about DS' but to others it probably seems as if it is. I mean, when you share stories with other mums you're going to talk about your only and no-one else, aren't you?

Our somewhat flawed solution to take the heat off DS a bit was to get a dog - the dog has done a lot of things a sibling would. He's stolen and chewed precious toys, his needs have to come before DS's sometimes, like if he needs a walk, and he gets quite a lot of attention. On the plus, he's good company for DS, who like to snuggle with him in bed (dog loves this, as he isn't allowed on anyone else's bed - hope no-one from the pet thread is reading, as I may get told off!), and DS thinks of him as his best friend.

Anyway, I've done it again - written a huge long post and hogged all the attention. I really need to learn how to be more succinct. LOL

Hi Ladies,
Huckabees, thank you very much for sharing. Your birth story is shocking and it is awful that you don't have access to your notes to at least try to understand why things turned out the way they did. I completely understand the 'what if' feelings as well. After all the investigations and procedures you have been through, you are one hell of a brave lady I am not in the slightest bit surprised that you called it a day. I hope that you have a lovely day with your DS.

I have been for an internal scan this week and whilst all looks OK in terms of being able to conceive, my cervix is very short (as result of procedures I've had and DS delivery). Even if I am lucky enough to get pregnant by any method, I'm in for a hell of ride with cervical stitches and continual monitoring. I also developed PE with DS which meant 2 weeks being hospitalised before he was born so that will also complicate things. If I was someone else reading this I'd be thinking that I needed my brain examined to want to even put myself through this.

Am also having a crap week too Wiggle.Sorry to hear you also are feeling low. Why do they insist on repeating tests over and over again? Presumably these test will all have a cost and it must be so frustrating to be poked and prodded about yet again. I hope you manage to have a good chat with DH tonight.

I haven't even thought about schools yet but as DS is at nursery day care now anyway, it won't be such a big transition for us (she says!). I hope you get the school that you're after.

I too am expecting AF any day, have PMT from hell and DS has been behaving like Damian the past few days I just don't know what has got into him. So generally feeling like a crap mother too as the cherry on the top. Sorry everyone, just realised what a miserable post I've just written!