We might be over 40 but we are young at heart, taking our supplements, shagging on time and waiting for the precious BFP!Over 40's TTC, join us here...

[Gumblossom]

Starting the new thread, Cloudjumper.

Anyone over 40, trying to conceive, whether it is your first or 6th (or more), we're facing the obstacles together.

I've been at it for 6 years now, but there are plenty of good news stories from these threads over the years.

Come and join us with your worries, woes,successes and milestones, we are here to support one another in our quest.

Cloud, you were horribly right about my temps. I am now CD2 of a new cycle. I need some advice, please. I have had 31-day cycles before (but only once when not on Clomid) so I guess this last one was not unusual. However, I have never, ever had an 18-day luteal phase. Of course, FF could have got my ov day wrong and it could quite reasonably have been on CD14 instead. This, however, would still have given me a 17-day LP, again which I have never had (except on Clomid). This was my first cycle after four months of being on the drug. Can anyone explain such a long luteal phase? Looking at my temps, do you think I could've ov'd later than CD14?

I have recently started taking vit B-Complex which includes B6 (5mg) and B12 (10µg). Could this have seriously lengthened an LP that has always been 13 days?

I have a further question, too (sorry!) Assuming that I had ovulated last month on CD14 (because that is what FF originally concluded) I took myself to the hospital on CD21 for a progesterone blood test. The score came back as a rather paltry 23.4 and I was pretty upset to have such rubbish progesterone levels. However, I can now see that the test was done far too early, agreed? It should have been done seven days before AF, which would have been CD25! Can I assume, then, that a prog score on CD25 would have been a whole lot better thatn 23.4?

Thank you for your help!

Ozmumd, I would go to your GP, telling him you've been trying for a year and that you would like day 3 & 'day 21' tests (if you have a 27-day cycle you would need the blood test on CD20). Also ask him to refer your DH for a sperm analysis.

Chewy, thanks for the links to soy threads. I read the first one but found myself not quite believing she knew what she was talking about. I'm sorry if that sounds unkind to the lady in question, but I wish she had said where her information had come from. She also erroneously says that the starting dose for Clomid is 100mg, when it is 50mg. I'd love to try soy if I could just find some authority on the subject. I would love to bring ov forward because I am sick of my 31-day cycles! Reni, you always read as though you like hard evidence...what are your thoughts on soy isoflavones?

Cloud, too, what do you think?

giraffe, if you do not want ov to be earlier, you must go for later period of taking the soy isoflavones. I think the latest one suggested has been 5-9which actually postpones ov. I have no idea whether there is any scientific evidence on all this at all, I have not found anything serious enough. All anecdotes. i did 3-7 and did not see any effect as far as OV timeing gors, day 13 is quite normal for me. But I also did not find serious health warnings.

flotillas I think your temps indicate that you ovulated on CD13, going by your chart. If this is your first cycle post-clomid, I wouldn't be too concerned about the length of your LP - it might well be that your body is still re-adjusting to being clomid-free and that it's effects are lingering. Also, B6 is known to lengthen cycles (although this effect is usually associated with much higher doses than you are taking).
I realise that it's not what you want to hear, but maybe sit this one out and see what the next cycle does, before taking any further steps. However, I do agree that your progesterone test most likely wasn't accurate, as it does seem that you have ovulated. Might be worth repeating it?
I don't know any thing about isoflavones, sorry!

ozmund Welcome to the thread. I'm sure that others might have more/better wisdom to share, but here are what I can add to your questions.
Only temping will enable you to pinpoint the actual day of ovulation, which is the day that your temp starts to rise. OPKs only determine the surge in luteinising hormone, which indicates that you are likely to ovulate within the next 24-36 hours - but this is obviously very vague! I find that using a combination of temping and cheapie OPKs allows me to time dtd optimally, with temping alone I'd be too worried I'd miss the crucial day. I've given up on the digital ovulation monitor...
I don't think that flat temperatures before and after ovulation are anything to worry about - do you mean that they plateau? I think that this is actually a good sign, certainly to be preferred over a temp line that looks like the Himalayas (which is what I often get, especially before ovulation). The only way to get certainty about your progesterone levels is by doing a blood test, it's really simple, and your GP should be able to get this done for you.
Back pain and cramps are quite a usual symptom around ovulation time, I would think? I've never heard them to be associated with low progesterone levels, but I guess you'll only know for sure once you've had your levels tested.

jass How are you doing?! Hope you're OK and looking after yourself.

I have a 31 day cycle & a long Lp too Flotillas. Never thought of it as a problem but someone recommended clomid for me today. To be honest, I haven't taken much notice when it's been talked about (sorry ) because I assumed as I was so regular it wasn't something I needed. Now I think I'd like to try it for my last ditch attempts! I'd better get researching.....

Flotillas I agree with you re the soy links. I haven't found anything more authoritative, or even vaguely scientific, but then I haven't looked very hard either. Perhaps there isn't much (or any) research to be found, as if trials tend to be funded by drug companies, its hard to see why anyone would go up against stalwarts like clomid or femara/letrozole.
So all I can say is, as far as I can tell, there seems a reasonable consensus of anecdotal evidence on soy, and that woman appears to be broadly in line with the consensus. On the other hand, you see the same 'instructions' for soy being copied and pasted all over the place, pretty much word for word, so maybe it is just erroneous beliefs that are being perpetuated?
I've given myself 2 more months of trying naturally (with or without soy) then I'll seek out some hard drugs I think. At the moment I mean drugs for fertility purposes, but who knows ...

Thank you very much Cloudjumper and Flotillas I really appreciate your warm welcome, thoughts and experience.

Out of interest, what are considered to be 'normal' Progesterone levels?

Ha ha, Chewy! I'll have what you're having. Are you serious about seeking out drugs? Do you mean Clomid? I got fed up of the damned long LPs; seventeen days without fail. I also put 8lbs on in four months! Bloody awful and seemingly uncontrollable. No matter how vigilant I was with my diet (I'm a very 'clean' eater anyway) the pounds just kept on coming. It was most bizarre and clearly hormonal weight. The day 21 scores were just phenomenal though - always over 120 with several large follicles seen at the time of the ultrasound. Didn't result in pregnancy though. Sigh.

DH and I have been practising SMEP every month. It's difficult, but I don't know of any other plan that gets that much semen in situ for when the egg is released - and also covers all bases. I know for sure that we have been stopping too early prior to the SMEP. When I read that temperature charting is only accurate at pinpointing ovulation 34% of the time (compared to ultrasound in trials) I was devastated. I've charted forever, but I've often believed FF have got my ov date wrong. Sometimes they have been out by two days on my charts, and the classic 'nadir temp as ov' theory is largely a myth, according to this study. I have only just recently learned, too, that a sustained temp shift may only occur sometimes up to three days after a positive opk has been recorded. So, when I have been stopping having sex the day after my LH surge - and on the day of the nadir on my chart - I have actually been stopping three days too early

If soy can't do me any harm - but may bring ovulation forward - I might try it. What if that lady's instruction was true, though, and immature eggs are produced? Are we worse off with immature eggs as forty-somethings? Are eggs 'overcooked' if we ovulate late? What do we classify as 'late ovulation'?

Cloud, I appreciated your opinions on my chart and LP, thank you.

Ozmund, between 20-30, depending on your fertility clinician. I wish someone would just make a decision!

I found only the european food and drug safety analysis on soy, and it was done for using it in perimenopausal or menopausal women. It said that soy was peoven to lessen the symptoms associated with menopause, but it did not fulfill the claim of helping with bone density. So, there is evidenc it had influence on hormonal balance, and more important, soy was deemed safe, no dangerous side effects.
Nothing else scientific what I could find over net. Eggs being mature or not mature enough, all this I think can not in any way be proven, unless someone took them out as for IVF and looked at it. It seems also that soybabies are more often miscarried, but as soy and all other supplements are used by women with fertility issues/age issues, it may be related to the cohort using them. All weak and anecdotsl, no serious studies anywhere. I do not know why. There are also no studies to prove it is all snake oil, though.

thanks for the info on the soyIsos , not sure Im ready to take them yet. May hold them in reserve for a month or so, so I have something to try when I feel like I need to try something different.

Im doing SMEP too flotillas, about to start it again for this month. Its bloody exhausting though, especially with an 11 month old. Basically, I believe if we have enough sex before and after ovulation then we've done all we can. Hate the thought of missing ovulation these days...

I had to have a sedond d&c today, as usual, I got retained products. Here in my home country my doc knows I easily retain them, so the vacuum cleanout I had in Luxembourg was prone to leave some stuff behind. Since my hpts were still strong bfps, I went and complained yesterday and on the us there was clearly big piece of debris still. Hope its clean finally now. I think the fact that placentagrows strongly to the muscle layer of my uterus is linked to why my body has been refusing the pregnancies - without today's medical help I would bleed to death if I carried full term......

Jass - sorry to hear you needed a 2nd d&c, but hope it will put you in the best possible position to try again.

Interesting info about the Euro food & drug safety analysis on soy. It must surely be credible on the hormonal balance/menopause use. I was waiting in the pharmacy today and noticed a range of multi-vitamins called 'Menopace', made by Vitabiotics (same company that make Pregnacare). They all include Soy Isoflavones alongside the multivits/minerals. 'Menopace Original' has 20mg Soy Iso, 'Menopace Plus', has 120mg Soy Iso and 'Menopace Max', has 100 mg Soy Iso + 40 mg Red Clover Isoflavones. The point being, these are daily doses, which Vitabiotics must think are 'safe'.

Sorry - I realised I forgot to thank Fatty and Fireflies for the top tips on other supplements! I've a few on the list for next cycle. For now, its just Pregnacare, Vit D, DHEA and CoQ10.

I do hope early pregnancy is going well Fatty?

Fireflies I almost started to suspect your DH and my DP were part of some Dadsnet support thread, 'Top Tips for TTC Shirkers'. My DP is another one who starts his supplements a couple of days before shag week, and thinks it entirely absolves him of blame for his sneaky bad habits the rest of the month .

Although I shouldn't criticise. I caved in and signed up for Fertility Friends but I'm CD6 and the basal thermometer I purchased online is still in the post. When FF scores cycle efforts, is there a 'must try harder' category?

Flotillas - I thought I'd investigate some extra 'help' in a couple of months. Probably not Clomid though. I saw a consultant last year and was just about to do superovulation with low dose Menopur (and timed sex, not IUI) but fell pregnant (later MMC). So I might try that. Or some type of IVF, maybe natural cycle. But no firm thoughts, as I decided to cross that bridge when I come to it, and for now deluding myself hoping I won't have to.

Hi ladies.
Jass I am sorry to hear you had to have the D&C again. I suppose now the hcg should drop away and you can start ttc again?

I wrote a huge post yesterday which I then accidentally deleted. Oh my goodness I was annoyed!

I did a bit of research on Google Scholar about Soy iso's and unfortunately found very little about fertility. It was all about safety in post-menopausal women. One paper looked at a few different studies to look at the effectiveness of soy for peri-menopausal women. It summised that estrogen levels were no different on soy.This study suggested LH and FSH improve, but not estrogen. I read many other studies, all which said soy isoflavones really don't do much at all. Which was disappointing as there seems to be so much anecdotal information that it works.

I took red clover isoflavones this month, which might be why I am having a long cycle. I was a bit confused about when I ovulated - my temperatures were a bit low post O. However, I did have a positive opk on day 12, which means even if I did ovulate 2 days later (which is when I had O pain), I would still be 13 DPO today and there is no sign of AF, and temps are still reasonably high. I did a test though and it is clearly negative . Perhaps AF will show sometime today or tomorrow.

I also looked at some studies re: use of clomid in the over forties. It seems it isn't the best choice,due to the drying effect it has on CM, and the thinning of the lining, which may make implantation difficult. However one study suggested it gave women in their 40's a 3-4% advantage over ttc naturally. The same study suggested women go to IVF because it gave them a 20-40% chance at pregnancy.It wasn't a study by fertility clinics, however, it was a study that collected information from various sources, which suggests to me, that they may have gotten their information from fertility clinics.

Another article (which I will also try to find) suggested that another drug was a better choice. I think it was letrozole is a safe and better alternative to Clomid in ovulation induction (also called femera).

I am struggling to find the original articles I read. But this one sounded positive about using clomid However it doesn't say what age the women were.

It's incredibly time-consuming reading these studies, and I tend to skip to the conclusions, and I might add, I am no scientist, so I may have gotten a bit mixed up.Anyway, have a read of the articles if you like.

After all that, I still think I should not take the clomid I have sitting in the cupboard,as it can have horrible side-effects and screw up estrogen levels.I will stick to hoping for a miracle and letting nature do the rest. I am not even sure about taking the isoflavones as all the studies suggest they are next to useless (but then, I suppose where is the harm,apart from the money spent?)

Have a pleasant Easter weekend everyone.

I wish Moonstone would come back and update us. I hate not knowing what the"end" of the story was. These cliff-hangers happen a lot on chat websites - I shouldn't get so attached

Cross posted with you Chewy. Rather than say "must try harder", fertility friend is very blunt, and told me I had a "low" score for DTD. Not surprising, but doesn't make one feel very happy!

God I wish I could just prove everyone wrong and get pregnant with a keeper! Where is the frustrated emoticon when I need it. This will have to do:

I was listening to a song in the car the other day, called,"If I could start the day again", it is about,if you could change one thing, one day, the persona, would, to "undo the thing he did", and I wondered which day I'd change. Would it have been the day my DH went to get his vasectomy when our fourth child was a year old, had screamed solidly for the first 8 months of her life, and had made us tired and irrational and exhausted, so we jumped at the idea, would it be that day? Or would it be later, when I continued to breastfeed my DS (conceived after the vasectomy reversal), should I have weaned him earlier, so I could start ovulating sooner, and maybe had a better chance of conceiving another baby before my fertility wanned?

I don't know. It's silly thinking these things over, when none of it can be changed. I don't really want to change any of it. I just want to somehow bring about a chance for another pregnancy and baby. It's just so late now - I am inching closer to 49 and it is so unlikely.

I had better go and do something useful. It must be the meloncholia brought on by PMT. Bah-humbug....

GUm, feeling sad is normal. On the other hand - this DS you have you probably would not have if you have had a couple of babies earlier. Also, breastfeeding is so special that I feel I could never compromise on that to re-ttc. I also fed my DC4 for 15 months and only restarted ttc after that. I also left myself to recover for few months, not bf, not ttc. In retrospective, what would it have changed if I started earlier?

And on soy. yes, it does not harm your general health, but can for some people mess up cycle. It is of course anecdotal as well as pos stories, but on soy threads some ppl ged weird cycles from soy.
I have decided to go without for a couple of months when I restart ttc, and then maybe again try it for one cycle sometime in the autumn, if no bfp before. I will also have chat about redoing some of my tests sometime later in April, when I can go to docs in Estonia again. I will not want to try them again too soon, as I guess my lining will be thin anyway initially. No trying first cycle, but on the second will give it a go.

Sorry you are feeling down Gum. I have certain regrets about timing decisions we've made in the past too. But what's done is done.
I've been hanging around the thread, hoping for some happy updates. Maybe I should give my own quick update!
I'm now 9+3. Everything seems ok so far, from the outside. The question of course is whether or not I have a second heartbeat inside me right now. That won't be answered for a few more weeks. I can't face another scan room conversation which starts with "Sorry..." So I'm delaying the moment for as long as I can. I've finally taken the first step of booking a GP appointment, for when I've just turned 12 weeks. I know this puts me out of synch with the system, but I will just take it as it comes. I just feel that I want my body to have as long as possible to start miscarrying naturally if that's what it is going to do. I absolutely do not feel ready to have a booking appointment with a midwife. At this stage the idea of discussing the birth of a baby still feels ridiculous.
How are you getting on Fatty?

Fromwest, good strategy! But maybe you should have a sneaky peak inside in privat place around week 10, in case you want to go for the Harmony type blood test for genetic issues? It is done from week 10-12 normally, so information is in rather earlier than later. That is why I wanted to go at 10w (went earlier forspotting finally). But if you will continue with pg whatever the test results, then of course it is worth not hurrying anywhere. My bet is there is a heartbeat, as you have no spotting or anything suggesting mc.

I'm not planning on having any testing done, so the timing doesn't matter in that sense.
It could go either way. If this pg succeeds it will have been the mildest first trimester I've ever experienced in a successful pg. Having said that my pgs have become easier each time, so it could be my normal trend.
I will update here if/when anything happens.

Fromwest - wow, 9 + 3 already! I can understand your reticence with booking in, but especially as it sounds like things are going well, I'm sure your worries are misplaced. I was just wondering if you were considering having the combined screening test (U/S + blood test) on the NHS, as I think it needs to be done by 13 + 6? I booked in quite late with DD, but then on top of that, the NHS took so long to get me a dating scan that it would've been done too late to get the screening done (at the same time) had I not complained. Although I don't suppose it would've mattered so much as I forked out for the Harmony test anyway.

Gum - Hmm, I feel pretty similar. "If I could start the day again" ... I'm glad I don't know that song, or else it might have to become my theme tune! TTC at 45 can seem such a ridiculous notion that sometimes I swear I must have spent more time choosing handbags than in making some of the more important decisions in my life. Well of course not, but you'd be forgiven for thinking so ... Anyway, quite enough of that!

So Gum you may feel another baby is 'unlikely', but its hardly impossible at 48.

Before my birthday last year, I researched a few clinics who were prepared to offer ART with own eggs aged over 45 and obviously I was interested in their successes at older ages. Four separate clinics told me of successes at age 48, and even though there were not many, it seemed significant there were at least a few. My favourite was probably a case report from the recurrent miscarriage clinic I saw, about a 48-year-old who conceived on their superovulation treatment (Letrozole) and went on to have a live birth - healthy and full term. As that was after having many repeated miscarriages (in the double figures).

But maybe its also time to wheel out Dr Luisa Dillner for the holidays! In case you're not familiar with her, she's a medical doctor and journalist, who had her fifth baby at 48. She'd been on a low carb diet (aged 47), was dismayed that it didn't seem to be working, and was totally surprised to find out the reason was that she was pregnant.

In case you're interested, here are some links to her story in the Guardian (UK). I must admit, I've read her a couple of times when I've needed cheering up!

- 24 Oct 2009 - finds out pregnant

- 15 Dec 2009

- 2 Jan 2010

- 16 Jan 2010

- 23 Jan 2010

- 30 Jan 2010

- 6 Feb 2010

- 13 Feb 2010

- 20 Feb 2010 - gives birth

- 27 Feb 2010

More - 'a new mum again at 48' - see list of articles here: all articles by Dr Luisa Dillner

Happy Easter to everyone!

Thanks for uplifting links! Will read when I have time. I have found anthread on baby and bump where they have several prednisolone-taking women finally havin successful pgs after loads of mc. They are taking pred from ov. Which makes me think maybe I should, too. But I tried it once and it messed up my cycle, i.e. did not ov at all next cycle.... Catch 22 really. I could take it from 2-3 dpo, but I would need to be successful that cycle in getting pg. My chance of falling pg on every single cycle is about 25%, based on my history, so not that low, but still....

Fromwest, if you are not going to do any testing, you can of course avoid going to docs since I understand you do not lose any child support over it. Both in Luxembourg and in Estonia you have to show up at certain point to not lose any child support, so you are in this sense lucky to be in UK. I might only go at week 16-18, if I did not want to test. So what if they think you are crazy? Of course you are slightly crazy,due to your history and thats it. We all are.

Er, I really came to say I am testing very weak on hpts now. Yesterday was weak and today even weaker. Using internet cheapies though, they are considered very sensitive, but I have used them before and I know they are actually quite rubbish, but still... Line is visible, but very weak.

Loved reading the links. what a lovely story.

jass, you have so much experience, may I ask if you can help me shed some light on what is going on with me?

I still don't have AF today. I think I could be either 16 DPO (according to Ff, + opk and temperature rise. Or day 14 do if I go by my O pain. But maybe the slow rise wasn't a rise at all, and I didn't ovulate until day 18 or 19 (which doesn't really fit with the + opk).

The thing is, I don't think its an anovulatory cycle as I now have sore boobs. I took a test today which is negative, but that doesn't necessarily mean I am not pregnant, I suppose some women don't get + tests until later? However, in my last 4 pregnancies I got + earlier than 12 do. How late can implantation take place?

I suppose I can't do anything about it. I am still hoping that the sore boobs,occasionally feeling off colour and tiredness might mean something. On the other hand, could the red clover have done something, or perhaps the progesterone cream I have been using?

Here is my My Chart

Anyone else shed any light?

Progesteron cream in principle can give you sore goobs all by itself - after all, it is more progesterone in your system than your usual level. My duphaston supplements do give me sore boobs whixh I do not have in the cycles when I do not take them from ov. Maybe that? I do agree that if you normally have pos hpt by this time it is prob not pg. But maybe there is a pos surprise?