TTC Super Ovulation part 3

[Arianrhod]

Hey ladies -

There are a few of us who are ttc after mc's, however there will be ladies out there who are also ttc for the first time or second or third without success. If anyone is on, considering or had success on a super ovulation programme then do join us. How long did it take ? Did you try IUI with it.. ? Did you have PCOS?

Kicking this off and hoping some of you will join....

part 1 here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/conception/1385998-TTC-Super-Ovulation

Part 2 here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/conception/1475108-TTC-Super-Ovulation-part-2?pg=1

Well just been to mr s who said he thinks I've 80% had another miscarriage as he just saw yolk sac I'm in shock I saw fetus and heartbeat thurs night so wasn't expecting this its like its disappeared. He said continue medication and have scan thurs then it's genetic testing I'm bewildered :( what started a great birthday is now disaster :(

Can fetus hide behind yolk sac? Can it and heartbeat just dissolve??

Mel no words, is there a walk in EPAU near you? Know that in London some places have them.Might be worth getting a second opinion. Especially since they saw a fetus on thursday, when I have had mmc fetus could still be seen, just no heartbeat.

The epau isn't open til Tuesday and my appointment is thurs so think its a case of sitting it out. I've had a horrid thought that it may be on its way out if its disappeared unless that would happen quite quickly. I guess by thurs if nothing's happened ill still have a bit of hope. I know when I've had miscarriages ive either had pain and bleeding or seen a fetus.

I am sorry Mel I think then you may have to wait this one out. Here for some virtual hand holding. Was the scan on thursday done on the same machine. I would of guessed it would take longer than 48hrs for the fetus to disappear, so seems odd that they can only see a yolk sac now. It may be that the machine they used is less sensitive today.

Oh I hope so lemon I'm struggling to find optimism. Scan thurs was at local epu, I did have to put my fists under my bum to higher myself and I didn't today. My scan today was at newlife Epsom so I guess his equipment will be top of the range! X

Oh Mel so sorry for the turmoil you are going through. So odd everything can be going perfectly on course on Thursday and then not by Saturday. I agree with lemon, if you can go to your epau on Tuesday I would. Mine scanned me far more thoroughly than Mr S last time I went and it will mean you will have an answer before next Thurs. Sending you a big hug.

Pebbles thanks for your words of wisdom. Hope you manage ok being around your DH's nieces, it is hard. I agree with duggs, if you have the letrozole I would use it.

OK mel. I'd like to say yeah it will be ok dr s is mistaken but I have to be honest and say please listen to him. I have seen a heart beat at 12 weeks that disappeared by a second scan one hour later. At the early stages a fetal pole that doesn't grow can be re absorbed by the body. I sincerely hope he was mistaken but I doubt he was. There is always hope but in my experience hope is cruel and you have already gone through hideous heart ache. Having a glimmer of hope makes you have to re live it on second scan. If you chose to accept the 80% figure as more probable then any mistake will be highlighted next week and you will be over the moon if you see growth. It is so unfair and doesn't make sense but I just want to hold you up and say you are amongst strong, strong women who can face these things. I actually think all this is down to luck and chance and nk cells, chromosomes, hormones etc all being right and the right time. it is luck all the way. Please be strong and look forward. If the heartbeat is seen next week then you will be a very happy lady who wishes she never went to dr s today but one thing he does have on his side is experience with scans. Either way the next few days are going to be tough so deep breath and plough through- you can do it! We r here for you x

Oh lord mel, I'm so hugely sorry. I'd echo everything that duggs said though - I wish to goodness it comes out differently but Mr S is very experienced in scans and I understand the body can absorb things that are viable very quickly. Also as duggs says it could be all sorts of reasons, not just down to NK cells. I know none of this helps you at all, and what a horrible shock it is after seeing a heartbeat .. however my third MC the baby died at 8 weeks 6 days, had I had a scan earlier than the 9.4 weeks that I did I would have seen a clear heartbeat & proper-sized foetus.

It's so so sad this has happened, and I pray that you do end up in the 20%, but we're here for virtual hand-holding either way. Huge hugs and take care of yourself. xx

/waves to everyone, will post more later when I'm not on the phone!

Oh god Mel I have just seen your post and other than to say I am so, so sorry you are having to go through this nightmare I just don't know what to say. The ladies on here have given you wise words of wisdom and we are all here for you and understand what you are going through. Will be thinking if you over the next coming days, I know how hard it is being stuck in this limbo and ad Duggs said it is just a case of plowing on through.

Hope everyone else is doing ok, hope you are coping with the injections Ari

thanks ladies I really thought the plan would work and this was our take home baby especially as saw heartbeat after my previous mc time it's so cruel. Mr s wants me to send any products for genetics. Where do I take it?? A and E?? If my body has just absorbed it there won't be any to send will there?? I'm just in a daze at the moment waiting for pain or bleeding will I get any if body's absorbed it??

I'm so so sorry, Mel. Timing with scans can be so deceptive and cruel. When I had my scan on the day that the baby was dying, afterwards I was glad it it had been then, because if it had been the day before even, I would have gone another two weeks oblivious of what had happened. I'm sure you're stunned and shocked; I remember feeling totally numb leaving Mr S's office a few weeks ago.
Yes, there will be bleeding, because you've still got the thickened lining to come out. Take the products to EPAU if open. There may still be genetic fragments present even if it's been reabsorbed. I read up on the test when I was in the same situation, not sure if I would miscarry naturally before my ERPC; apparently if it comes out naturally, it makes it less likely that they can grow the cells in the lab to test them, but certainly not impossible. There is also always the problem of distinguishing the tissue of the foetus from the mother's tissue, the sample can get contaminated, so sometimes they can't give you an answer, and maybe that is more likely where the foetus has been reabsorbed. But if you act quickly, hopefully they should still be able to do the test. Have you always miscarried naturally or had missed miscarriages? If they do an ERPC it's more efficient at getting the right material to test. xxx

Thanks brown I think I've had every miscarriage going!
No 1- waters broke at 25 weeks luckily Lucie survived at 29 weeks
No 2- bleeding and contractions at 16 weeks had to deliver a boy naturally
No 3- missed miscarriage at 10 week scan baby had died at 7 and half week no signs at all, decided on natural miscarriage but then had clots afterwards so very drawn out
No 4- pain and spotting a week before then blood so knew I'd miscarried at 5 weeks
No 5- got past my last deadline and thought all this new treatment was my answer so now I'm dumbfounded to discover it can just dissolve
I think I will opt for d and c as I agree with you brown about testing and that otherwise I could be in limbo weeks waiting.
Ill hopefully get more of an idea today x

Brown where did you have erpc?
I think mr s may do same test as he said I can either do it with him for £1000 or do it free at hospital. If he tests for more i will find the money but I just feel if baby has dissolved my results won't be much use. When I had erpc last time their were no foetus results and in sure foetus was there! I've found papers about my blood which I'm sending mr s as I have too many red cell antibodies so don't know if that's a factor. I feel though I do need to try again in the near future to make use of the humira but obviously I also want to make sure this won't happen again x

Oh mel save your money! The hospital will do their best to capture anything but is so early is difficult. I know some of the other ladies on pred thread had ERPC with dr s and he didn't find anything. Perhaps post on pred thread and you will get lots of feedback there x

Mel wait until you have been seen by EPAU on thursday. If it is a missed miscarriage they will offer you erpc and they can send it off to see if it was a chromosomal problem. From what I have read on the pred thread in the past Mr S tends to do his erpc under a local. You may want to ask their experience of this. I am not sure if Mr S does any additional tests to what you can get done on the NHS at this stage. In which case I would opt for the NHS.

Just had a scan and there was fetus but no heartbeat. Hospital can get me in tomorrow for op and do genetics. Louise said mr s can do karotyping but I think that's the same plus we'd have to get to Surrey and the idea of not being out of it does not appeal!

Mel I am so sorry. We are all here for a bit of handholding. Karyotyping is genetics, where they look at the number of chromosomes. You can check with Louise if they will do a general, can not remember it may have been kittens or Ari who had a erpc with him. It sounds like your epau are very good. A big hug to you and your family.

Yes, I'd definitely do the same, Mel. That is what I did; my friend LJ had hers done under local by Mr S and it didn't sound pleasant, and why pay for an unpleasant procedure when you can be blissfully unaware for free? My ERPC (at the new Pembury hospital, on NHS) could not have been more straightforward. Very quick and no pain at all, lovely nurses. Your hospital will be doing exactly the same test as Mr S would. And at least there was a foetus to test. Strange how Mr S couldn't see it though.

mel I'm so very sorry :( Big hugs to you, what a sh*tty thing to happen. I'd do the exact same as the others, I'd opt for the GA every time and if your hospital is happy to do the genetic testing, then absolutely save yourself the money and get it done there. Wasn't me that had an ERPC with Mr S, no way I could have afforded that! Both of mine were done at my local hospital, although sadly they refused to test.

I was wondering the same as brown .. strange that Mr S didn't see the foetus?

Best of luck to you mel, and as lemon says, we're all here for hand-holding.

Thanks yes I think itl be hospital I don't fancy the travel or being awake and I think they'll test what they can. It was strange mr s couldn't see it but he did seem rushed and my epau really zoomed in and showed me so it was a relief to see it there to be honest! Thanks for the handholding I need it I may wake up soon!! X

Oh Mel I am so very sorry to hear about your miscarriage. How bloody rubbish. Am glad to hear you can get in to your local hospital for an ERPC tomorrow. There is nothing worse than them dragging it out for a week hoping that you'll miscarry naturally which is what they did to me last time. Just make sure that you remind them when they are doing all the pre-op checks that they need to do the genetic testing. I was paranoid they'd forget so told anyone and everyone! And I don't know how anyone could have that done under a local, not for me ? knock me out thanks! Best of luck for tomorrow.

Sue how are things going with you. Did you find out what was going on with the bleeding on CD17? And 17% chance of success ? that's great.

Duggs I would have continued on from January doing SO if I hadn't have been stuck on a jury for 17 weeks. The Judge was very nice about having time off for various appointments, but I thought I'd be pushing my luck if I kept asking for time off for scans every few weeks! I have a whole drawer full of Letrozole too, just sitting there gathering dust. I did wonder about just taking it and seeing what happened, but I am a bit of a woosy when it comes to things like that!! So I'd echo what everyone else says...go for it!

Wow Ari, things are moving nice and quickly! How are you getting on now with your injections? I am not looking forward to them! Penny and Serum sound really fantastic and thorough. If my OH wasn't a little strange with the whole thing I'd have looked into going there. It's hard enough getting him to Chelsea, so getting to Athens would be a nightmare!

Belly so excited for you too. When do you have to have your IVIG? I have been told I have to have it too and am not looking forward to it, especially the £££! Where are you having treatment, I can't remember? Sorry to hear you were down last week. I think it's something we can all completely relate to.

Pebbles hope your weekend with your OH's family went well and wasn't too hard for you.

Lemon how are things with you?

I had my test results follow up with the Lister last week. Thankfully I don't have fragile x syndrome, my thyroid function was fine, both of our karyotypes came back normal and the consultant wasn't worried about the dna fragmentation. He said anything under 30% was fine. I did ask him about this as I'd read it was better to be 15% or under and he said nope, all good.
The nkcell CD69 and cytotoxicity tests ,of course, are where all my issues lie. When I was tested with Mr S in Sept 2011 my total absolute count was 228 (should be

Oh Mel I'm so sorry that's truly awful esp with the confusing series of scans. It's great you can get in for ERPC tomorrow though. Well hardly great but you know what I mean. . Do remind them to test as Breezy says though.

Re mc's with two of mine everything has just disappeared. I bled for weeks but no clots or products yet empty uterus on a scan. It's only my most recent mc when I've seen anything of substance. The body can apparently absorb a pregnancy when its lost early on. I guess with all the drugs esp the cyclogest they can make the body hold onto things rather than let it all go iykwim. Anyway that hasn't actually happened with you after all, so at least there'll be something to test. Weird how mr s didn't see the foetus though.

The Humira is supposed to stay in your system for six months or so so you've plenty of time to get ready to go again. Don't rush it. Look after yourself x

breezy that all sounds promising at your end. Have a lovely holiday too!

breezy That all sounds really positive. Interesting about the drastic drop in CD69, with correlated increase in total absolute count. Only thing that occurs to me is, did you have any kind of allergy/inflammatory reaction going on at the time, or did you change your diet or start taking any kind of supplements between then and your testing now? eg omega 3 capsules or resveratrol (both known to reduce NK cells), or cutting down on gluten or something? Just wondered.

I know what you mean about the money, it's unbelievable the amount these things cost. I know how much IVIG costs, it's horrible. gonal-f, the only place I know to get it from is the place New Life uses, Central Healthcare - BUT I would say get a quote from Asda and Superdrug pharmacies, since they are committed to providing IVF drugs at cost, they can often work out cheaper.

I'm faced with horrendous bills for neupogen, should this DE cycle succeed. OH thinks we just paid ?500 for 5 vials of neupogen, each vial will provide 4 to 5 shots, and I have to do this daily. Given that you're supposed to keep injecting up to at least 9 weeks of pregnancy (assuming we're lucky enough to get that far) ... well, my brain just refuses to work out those calculations! I'm not sure it's cheaper than IVIG, to be honest :(

AFM .. injections, no I'm doing very badly indeed. The neupogen ones are fine, just like injecting gonal-f, but the clexane are causing me real problems. I bruise very easily at the best of times, but the clexane ones .. no matter what angle I go in at, or how slowly/gently I inject, I either end up with a massive bruise and lump (45 degree injection) but minimal pain, or minimal bruising (90 degree injection) but really intense pain as I feel the liquid spreading after injection for a good half an hour plus. I am using xylocaine spray to anaesthetise the skin prior to injecting, and that's helping a lot with the initial getting the needle in pain, but I'm really struggling with the actual injection and aftermath. Goodness knows where I'll inject if I have to do this for any length of time, I'm running out of places already after 6 days!

Hope everyone's doing ok .. duggs did you decide to do another cycle of gonal-f? And pebbles .. likewise, but with the Letrozole?

/waves to everyone

BreezyWeezy and Ari, good luck with everything. BreezyWeezy, your description of the cytotoxicity test and the effect of the NK cells on pregnancy tissue is such a convincing graphic illustration of what I had begun to suspect recently is just theory.

So confusing ... in the interests of impartiality I have been reading articles that are really 'anti' the whole NK cells/steroids theory, and starting to go along with them, but that has really put a spanner in the works for me!
Having said that, I've just been reading one saying that the major flaw with the whole theory is that circulating NK cells (i.e. what we have tested in a blood test) have nothing whatsoever to do with the NK cells in the uterus, where their function is unknown ...
Ari, do you know when I should start taking agnus castus after a miscarriage? Nothing's going on and I want to kick start it, but do you have to wait for one cycle first?
Mel, good luck tomorrow. I had a week before my ERPC and in a way it gave me time to come to terms with what had happened a bit before it was finally over; I could pretend to be pregnant for a little bit longer. So you might find everything a bit quick. On the other hand, you might prefer it all over now that you know. Either way, we'll all be thinking of you. x