3rd failed attempt of embryo implantation

[KarRose]

Just done pregnancy test, negative again!!! Beginning to think should I just give up and accept it is not meant to be for us. Not getting any younger and can we take going through it all again. We have had good fertilisation results and went to blastocyst this time, why o why does the embryo not implant. Such a devasting dissapointment.

KarRose, you have my massive sympathy, I've been there many times and know how dreadful and heartbreaking it is. Have you had immune testing? repeat implantation failure is increasingly often found to be associated with immune issues that can make your body reject the embryo for a number of reasons. A google will give you some information or there's a massive amount on Fertility Friends here . Not all doctors believe in immune therapies for IVF, but it's growing and would be worth asking your clinic.

You could also make sure you've had a scan of your uterus to make sure there's no septum or other factor that affects the inside and could cause implantation issues.

Hang in there. It took us 4 IVFs to have our DS (with donor eggs) and we're approaching round 8 for a sibling. You'll get there. Be nice to yourself. And come on over to the Assisted Conception thread if you'd like some company. xx

Hi Mojangled, thank you for your reply, nice to hear from someone who understands. If we go for it again, we have a follow up appointment next week, I will most certainly be asking some questions, you have been most helpful. Thank you for your kind words, it means a lot. x

We're all in it together chickie xx

Hi KarRose, I have been TTC for 7 years and refused to go for my third cycle with our previous clinic until I knew why the embryos were not implanting. As my previous clinic were not going to spend the time investigating and were happy to proceed as before I was not prepared to go through the heart break.

I to had got to blastocyst and was convinced that we had the best chance but BFN for first 2 cycles. Then I went to the Zita West Clinic, so far it was the best decision I ever made. I am 6 weeks BFP and all down to them actually listening and taking the time to find out why. They do tests called the Chicago Tests which check issues with your immune system etc and Dr Ndukwe specializes in this type of research.

I have immune system issues as well as blood clotting issues which was causing the embryos not to implant. I have been given a bunch of medication to rectify the issues and if you have the opportunity to look on their website or even go to them I would highly recommend it.

S x

Hi sgibbo, thank you for your reply. What have you been prescribed for your immune and clotting issues? God I find it so confusing trying to decipher what the 'experts' tell you. I have asked my clinic about immune issues and rejecting/non implanting of embryo's but I was told that is why I had steroids prescribed. I also asked about junior asprin as I had read about it. My clinic said they are happy for me to take junior asprin on my next cycle, but this had not been mentioned before, it is only because I mentioned it. I did find out today that it is the sperm that carries the embryo forward after 3 days.
Any how enough of me, how are you doing?

Hey KarRose, I was prescribed Dexamethasone for a few weeks and after transfer I started prednisone which I'm still on up until 12 weeks. Not sure if I mentioned it before but our clinic did the Chicago test, which found the reasons for my problems, I also started on low dose aspirin before transfer and then moved onto clexane injections which I have to continue throughout the whole pregnancy.

Another thing I had checked was my vitamin D levels, they were ridiculously low and there is new research to show it can cause issues with implantation. My DH also has low levels and was given a supplement as well as me.

I found our original clinic used to laugh when I suggested issues with implantation etc and wanting to be tested for them which is why I changed and I am really glad we did, we found out on Friday that we are having twins - something I never thought possible.

Hi Sgibbo, thank you for so much information. When i mentioned to my clinic about possible immune problem causing implantation issues, they sort of dismissed it, but did agree that I could try the junior asprin route next time. For 2 out of my 3 cycles I had prednisone, on the second cycle I took 2 x 5mg per day for quite a few weeks before the actual transfer, this was really to help with a scalp psorisis flare up, but the 3rd attempt I was only given it on the day of transfer. How do you go about getting the vitamin d levels checked? I will certainly have a look into chicago tests too. Congrats you must be thrilled. Take care x

Hey KarRose, I'm on 20mg of Prednisone until 12 weeks than I have to start reducing the dose.

Vitamin D test I managed to get my GP to agree to do otherwise you can get them done privately they are about £50 I think. They look for levels to be around the 100 level for fertility but anything above 36 is considered OK health wise.

The Chicago tests just mean that they are sent to Chicago this is what they check for

Full blood count, fasting glucose, LFT's and U&E's
Thyroid function tests (including TSH and FT4)
Thrombotic Screen
PAI-1 gene polymorphism
Autoimmune antibodies (including antinuclear antibodies, thyroid peroxidase and anti-mitochondrial antibodies)
Vitamin D
Natural Killer (NK) cell assay
TH1:TH2 intracellular cytokine ratios
HLADQ alpha (for both myself and my husband)

From the above tests they found that I have PAI-1 gene polymorphism which is treated with the clexane. I am heterozygous positive the MTHFR gene mutation treated with 5mg of Folic Acid, B6 and B12. Also elevated CD3 immune cells (NK cells) + HLADQ showed myself and my husband share 0303 allele

All of which cause recurrent embryo implantation failure. I would highly recommend that if you can check for any of these before your next cycle just in case there is something that can be done.

I think the worst part of going for the next cycle for me was the not knowing the reason for the failure. Having found the reason and knowing how simple it is to rectify it was worth the delay and the expense.

I don't know if you are able to or not but I would highly recommend the Zita West Clinic, the price I found was on par cost wise with my previous clinic but instead of being a hospital number and following their hospital guidelines they treated us as an individual couple and worked our protocol to us and not to a set guideline.

Sorry for the long post but I know how hard it is to go through every cycle and not have the right result.

Having found out it's twins was thrilling but since I have had my midwife appointment reality is certainly starting to kick in as well as the nausea xxx

Please keep me posted and if I can help at all in anyway, please let me know xxx

Hi sgibbo good to read your post. I have had 2 fresh IVF rounds got PG on both of them but then miscarried at 8 weeks between those fresh cycles I also had a failed FET... all in the space of 1 year! YUCK. So, we decided to get the Chicago tests done, and have had the results back and there are some things there - i'm boarderline anemic apprently, have slight Vit D deficientcy and my DH has HIGH Vit D deficiency...plus other things that Dr Ndukwe has said we need to do - low dose asprin, steroids etc... i must say i'm rather scared about all the drugs i'll be taking but if it gets me to actually having a healthy baby at the end of it then that's all we could wish for!

So we are now trying to decide between Guys (where i've done all my previous attempts) and ZW to do the next fresh round in Jan. would you say they are the best therefore? Dr Ndukwe told us his results were better than ARGC after only 1 year of being based in London... what is the Portland place hospital like? How many weeks are you now?

Karrsoe hello - might be worth jsut getting all these Chicago tests done anyway so you can rule out immunology as an issue... wishing you luck

Hi Zeebee, glad to hear you had the tests and maybe now finally have an answer, I am 10 weeks today and looking forward to my scan next week.

Cost wise I found ZW in line with my previous clinic which was Hammersmith, the biggest bonus I found with ZW was the relaxed atmosphere and even though it is a really tough time emotionally I found them to be so supportive all the way through. The team at Portland place were great I couldn't have asked for any more.

The whole process was tailor made to me specifically and compared to H that was a breath of fresh air. I would highly recommend ZW. After transfer I had a couple of concerns and they put my mind at ease instantly whereas at H I struggled to get any kind of response

I had a huge amount of meds and have another couple of weeks left before I finish most of them. It really can be a struggle to remember all of the tablets to take but once you are in the swing of things u'll finish taking them before you know it x

Dr nduwke really knows his stuff when it comes to immune issues and implantation due to the vast research he's done, knowing the results from the Chicago tests I would suggest staying with someone that knows the correct treatment and can monitor you to the degree you will need xxx

Keep me posted on the decision you make. I know its not easy to change clinics especially when you have built relationships etc but if it means you have a chance of the outcome you deserve its a chance worth taking xxxxx

Can I just interject - George Ndwke is a v good practitioner. Zits West isn't. I could write a dissertation on my hatred for her. And it's hugely disingenuous of them to say that their results are better than ARGC after one year. So what? The number of patients they treat is so teeeeny as to fail to be anything like of significance. ARGC are able to reproduce a huge success rate year in, year out, on about ten times the number of patients that ZW see. ZW's stats mean nothing at this stage and seeing as the stakes are so high, the sensible choice to my mind is to choose somewhere that is likely to give you the best result, not a new clinic who have got lucky.
The stats are on the HFEA website, to compare like for like. Sorry if that appears to criticise anyone's decision but it was the comment about ZW's success rate that set my piss a'boiling.

Hi bagofholly are you actually talking from experience of the ZW clinic???? I would actually argue about checking the results if you actually take into account that their success rate is also based on a majority of the cycles they have carried out have been after previous failed cycles

I'm a prime example 2 previous failed and then 1 with ZW an I'm 10 weeks with twins. Which would have never happened at my previous clinic. In my opinion it all depends on your personal circumstances and what ur current clinic is willing to do for u. I do not think u can discount them just because they have only offered IVF for a short period of time because they only do IVF if there are no other options.

Also ZW is only a small clinic and limit the amount of people they assist at one time so that they can manage the protocol individually rather then one cap fits all some other clinics offer such as the larger ones

Yes I'm absolutely speaking from experience. I'm not for a second criticising Dr George's approach - he's bang on the money - but the very fact that ZW only offer IVF after their patients have exhausted ZWs other utterly unproven claptrap. And it really does matter that they're only treating a tiny number of patients because it means that compared to other clinics their results are not statistically significant. That's the bit I object to. It's not comparing like with like.

Just to add - almost all of ARGC's patients have failed elsewhere or worse, repeated losses.

They don't treat like for like that's the whole point. I would also suggest that the numerous other people that have been successful from the other 'claptrap' would disagree with you also. Just because something may not have worked for you or been an approach you don't agree with doesn't mean that it hasn't worked for others or won't work in the future. I wouldn't wish IVF on any one especially having had failed cycles and if the other claptrap could have worked for me then I would be all for it

ZW and her vitamins and acupuncture are a cynical way of extracting cash off people desperate for a result. And they're peddled as a lifestyle change to kick start things naturally. And it's utter bollocks. Utterly. If there were ANY published papers with robust data showing Zita and her fucking snake oil worked, the NHS would be all over it like a flash. But they're not, cos it's bollocks.
George Ndwuke - great bloke - he was at Care Nottingham and ZW poached him to add legitimacy and not a small amount of talent to her stable. As a marketeer I'm in awe of ZW. As a medical practitioner, she's a disgrace.

And if a couple want a baby I'd wish IVF on every one of them rather than watch them be fleeced by ZW and end up having it anyway.

And also, it's not about whether ZW worked for me, it's about the crap she peddles that DOESN'T work that she still charges for.

Every few weeks there's a story in the Daily Fail about how all the women working on till 13 at Asda Scunthorpe got pregnant. What does that mean? That there's something in the upholstery? No, it means fuck all, just like Zita's stats.

Maybe you should have started with "in my opinion" it would give u more credibility and refrain from swearing it's really not necessary in a discussion

As I pointed out earlier just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean someone else does and trying to ram your opinion onto others by swearing is quiet frankly disappointing

I have given my experience and advice to Zeebee and it's what she feels comfortable with at the end of the day, unlike you I have not criticised any other approach because frankly it's down to others to decide whether it's claptrap or a path they want to try first

And if I knew my chances of success without IVF could have been down to the clap trap I would have jumped at it, the emotional, physical and financial pressure could all be avoided - so No I would not instantly opt for IVF and with many people before getting to IVF u have to try most of it anyway before you can even be referred

Your experience, and indeed anyone else's, is irrelevant, surely you can see that can't you? ZW is unable to produce ANY robust data whatsoever on her products and treatments. She charges for them. And that is a disgrace. You might have had a good outcome - genuinely, congratulations - but for goodness sake evidence is not the plural of anecdote.
Surely making an informed decision is about looking at how data is reported, published and reviewed. And if someone is making decisions in the basis of unreliable information, spewed out by ZW then it's only the responsible thing to demonstrate why. What decision they make as an individual is up to them.
The point I'm making is that your chances of a pregnancy would NOT have been better with ZWs potions, because even she can't show that they work. She is doing nothing better than the manager of Asda Scunthorpe might do by charging you for a go on till 13.
But because people are desperate, and are often scared of the last ditch saloon IVF can appear to be, they try ZW.
And as for your comments about my language I think you can guess I don't give a wild shit about it. I do however give a shit about people being ripped off royally at their most vulnerable. You might not like the criticism levelled at the clinic you chose, and I'd love to be proven wrong. But I won't be, because other than George, ZW, her acupuncture, her vitamins, and her lifestyle nonsense, is bollocks.

And just to clarify, that's not "in my opinion." It really IS bollocks.

In my experience I didn't have any of the clap trap and it wasn't pushed on me at all. They listened found a problem and provided a solution and to be honest that's good enough for me. I wasn't a hospital number on a conveyor belt like me previous clinic I was a person with an individual problem

Ur hatred is down to you and so Is your opinion, just like my opinion is down to me and when asked a question by Zeebee I answered it honest and frankly from my experience and in my opinion!

No, my hatred is down to a clinic managed by a woman who charges for things that don't work. They cannot be demonstrated to work in any meaningful way beyond anecdote. That isnt experience or opinion. Good that you weren't treated like a hospital number. And good that you got a positive outcome (from George Ndwuke).

Her name may well be over the door but that shouldn't stop someone from using the clinic especially when dr nduwke is a. The one who ran the tests b. knows how to solve the results and c. The ZW IVF results are down to him so add that to his pervious success rates at other clinics and it's a no brainer. Did guys run those tests did they even consider them??? Would they treat you the same way as dr nudwke doubt it. But just because ZW name is above the door doesn't mean you shouldn't use the clinic!

You're right, Guys wouldn't do it and that's one of the reasons their results are crap. Dr. George can't show previous successes personally, only the success of his previous clinic where he was part of a team. So whilst his approach is similar to that of clinics getting consistently good results, he can't demonstrate the same as he treats a tiny number of patients and has been doing so for a short time. (And he's doing it in a clinic run with questionable ethics.) So by using a clinic with a similar approach, but which has treated far more patients successfully, for far longer, the whole process is far less of a shot in the dark. Dr. George might be having a good year. ARGC, the lister and UCH have had good results year after year and are therefore more likely to do so again.