TTC for 10+ months, part 4

[eurochick]

Time for a new thread as the other one is just about full.

Fingers crossed for lots of patiently-awaited BFPs on this one!

karbea I am guessing the 93/85% figure was about sperm morphology. The guideline figure used to be that above 15% normal forms was good. However, the WHO changed its guidelines about a year ago and now say that over 3 or 4% normal is fine. I think they also changed the assessment of normal. It caused some confusion for us because on hubby's first SA the normal forms were 12% but the reference on the printout showed that it should be 15%+. However, the gynae told us that it was fine because they were using the new method so anything over 4% was fine, but the printout hadn't been changed! Google kruger scale to find out more if you want to. I'm surprised your clinic isn't using the new method.

I had my appointment with the gynae immunologist yesterday. It was good I think. He did a scan there and then to check for polycycstic ovaries and said they were not quite normal but not really polycycstic, so that is good. He was thining about giving me metformin (a diabetes drug that is often prescribed for PCOS) but decided not to after having a look at my ovaries. Maybe the acupuncture has helped. He sent me for loads of blood tests so I will get those back in a couple of weeks and find out if the immunology stuff is the problem. He couldn't understand why the NHS gynae had referred me straight for IVF. He has prescribed me a clomid alternative (that supposedly has fewer side effects) "to give the sperm more targets to aim at" and wants me to be scanned close to ovulation to make sure it doesn't make me hyperovulate. It's so much more efficient than the NHS. In just over an hour I had seen the consultant (never saw the one on the NHS, just a flunky), had a medical history taken, had an internal scan, discussed treatment options, got a prescription, discussed supplements and been advised to take some additional ones and been round the corner for a blood test. Getting to a similar point on the NHS took from April to November. The blood tests will cost a packet but the consultation and scan were about £200, for an hour of a consultant's time. I think that is pretty good really,although I am sure all the scans and prescriptions will add up. The really annoying thing is that the fertile part of our first treated cycle will fall over Xmas, when the MiL is staying for 6 days. And our walls really are thin. We are trying to think of places we can send her out to! Does anyone want to borrow her for a couple of hours? ;)

karbea I have some of the same doubts. I find the physical process quite scary, frankly. And I am concerned about the long term side effects. I feel that adoption isn't for me though, so if we don't go down the IVF route I might have to reconcile myself to not having a family and I don't think I am ready for that.

I'll take your MIL shopping for a few hours Euro

Pixie HSG jiggling - Good God, the indignity. Did they ask you to do a quick Okey Kokey too?

Karbea IVF must feel like a massive step to be thrust on you like that. I totally agree that there ought to be some type of counselling or at least something like that. In fact I think that the whole fertility/infertility process has been the most insensitively handled thing I've ever encountered.
Mind you my own family haven't managed to muster much sensitivity (my Mum has now successfully told EVERYONE) so I'm not sure why I expect the NHS to be any better. My Grandmother came out with the old chestnut that "it isn't mean't to be". Does anyone else read into comments like that "the Universe must think that you'd be a shite Mum".

MrsHy How did your HSG go?

Joycep I'm sorry that ovulation hasn't happened for you this month. Do you think that you are uber stressed and that has messed it all up? Did your DH go away in the end?

Hello Poppy. I'm so sorry about your sad news. That is utterly cruel and I can't imagine how you must be feeling.

I hear you about feeling like the NHS is fobbing you off. I know that after 19 cycles of TTC to no avail that something is wrong but I too have effectively been told to bog off. It's so frustrating and demoralising.

I can't believe that so many of you ladies are going onto IVF treatment. Like Euro said it takes an age to get from A to B and then you are suddenly rushed straight through to Z.

Euro I'm very interested in your immunologist consultation and am watching with interest. I think in the New Year I might push for me and DP to look at going down this route privately.

If your Mum is any good with a paintbrush she can come and stay here for the 6 days

I'd never thought of using MN as a MIL-sitting service so I could get some swi in, but now I am considering drawing up some kind of rota for you all...

:)

Goodness, you have all had busy mornings. karbea - I know what you mean about ivf. It?s a massive undertaking on the body but also I don?t think it helps that you haven?t been trying for years. I mean this in the way that if we had all been trying for at least 2 years which none of us have yet then I think psychologically you really get in to a place where you believe it is unlikely to happen naturally and therefore become more accustomed to the idea of going through it. Perhaps I?m just speaking on behalf of myself right now but don?t we all still have some kind of hope every month...it may be only a glimmer but there always seems to be a little part that thinks, ?we could get lucky? because we have all heard so many against the odds stories. IVF though is psychologically, emotionally and a financial undertaking ? it feels like the last stop saloon in a way. Because it?s there, because we are all aware of our ages, it sort of adds to the pressure of going down that route and probably far too many people go down that route too early before other options have been investigated. However, i guess it's about how long we can wait. I would say you need to get in to a place where you are emotionally ready for ivf. I think considering other ideas like adoption is no bad thing as i do think it can lower stress levels. I read someone else saying that she had to lower her expectations of what she wanted...i.e she got in to a place where she was ok with going down the adoption route. Of course she ended up having kids of her own in the end.
I?m also surprised that your GP said your DH?s SA was ?average? and aRGC are saying that you?ll never conceive naturally. That?s a huge contradiction. I think you should get his results from your GP just as a comparison if anything else.

Euro - I must say it is quite surprising you have been sent straight to ivf after a year of trying. It just seems the nhs does not know what to do with people where there doesn?t seem to be anything particularly wrong. They don?t seem to explore anything properly. I read that 80% of people have immunology problems at the ARGC fertility clinic ? i do believe this is a massive development for a lot of people and may go someway to explaining a proportion of unexplained infertility cases. As for MiL, I have serious problems with mine at the moment, she is driving a wedge through everyone?s relationship so I will abstain on the offer!!

Pout - weren?t you going to be referred for a lap&dye or have things changed since you have moved? Ovulation hasn?t happened because my gynae pumped too much gonal f in to my body and so she caused a pile up of eggs which probably just can?t release. I just hope i go straight back to normal next month. DH is going away next year but i think it will only be for a few months now rather than 4months. Weirdly I?m kind of looking forward to the not trying...hopefully I can just park my obsession!

From what I have read, the original immunology research came about to try to find an explanantion for unexplained infertility and recurrent miscarriage so it wouldn't surprise me at all if a lot of the people who are having trouble conceiving are having problems as a result of immunology issues (where there is no other obvious problem like tube blockages, hormones or lack of swimmers). It's still not mainstream though. The HFEA does not have great things to say about it www.hfea.gov.uk/fertility-treatment-options-reproductive-immunology.html and many drs dismiss it but it does seem to be becoming more widely available.

joycep you are excused from MIL-sitting in the circumstances!

Afternoon everyone. I've been trying to get lots of work done today, so just been reading rather than posting. Wanted to get a quick response in now before too much happens.

MrsHY1 hope the non-medicated cycle turns out well for you. I don't like taking anything that might be unnecessary, it just muddies the water and makes it difficult to understand what's going on. I don't even like taking paracetamol for a headache - I'd rather know it's gone naturally, rather than wondering if the drugs worked or the extra water I was drinking.

Karbea I can't believe they sent you off to IVF that quick. They say a bad SA result can be a one off, surely they should do it again? Also, there must be ways to improve on Mr Karbea's results. I certainly wouldn't be comfortable heading straight onto IVF without first trying to improve DH's results and get another SA.

Poppy nice to meet you. So sorry you've had a difficult journey so far. Hopefully you'll find lots of help and support here from these lovely ladies. I know I have. I'm glad I've not yet had any problems with the NHS (for fertility, yet?), they're a difficult mammoth to deal with. I have found though that if your doctor won't help - go shopping for a doctor who will help.

< off topic > It took me months to get a doctor to take me seriously - and a trip to A&E - before I found someone who looked at everything properly for me, and eventually got me the cancer diagnosis. Who know's what would have happened if I'd done as I always do, and not made a fuss. < back on topic >

Go make a fuss!

Euro sounds like a good positive appointment. I hope the costs don't mount up before you get some good answers. I hope that private clinics are responsible in the tests they order for you. I'm not sure I'd trust them till I met them. Send your MIL round, she can chat with my Dad who'll be staying with us over xmas.

Just want to say quickly - I'm sorry if me talking about cancer makes people uncomfortable. I also want to make sure no-one thinks I'm looking for sympathy.

Having cancer changed the way I look at things, it's part of what made me who I am now, and how I see and react to things. I also feel as a society we need to talk about it more. I feel almost embarrassed to mention it most of the time, and wonder every time I do if people will mind!

JoycepI agree wholeheartedly that things aren't properly investigated. That immunology statistic is scary.

I don't believe in getting lucky any more. I absolutely have not been symptom spotting this cycle or the last and quite frankly don't believe that this could be the month. While I have kind of given up which is sad I feel almost relieved. Also on a positive note I won't get caught out sticking my boobs in the freezer or jumping up and down whilst simultaneously boob prodding
Having said that I still got a jolt and a day of abject depression after logging onto Facebook and seeing a preggo announcement the day before yesterday. I found myself saying the usual unpleasant things like how the updiffed one is very overweight, drinks like a fish, has a really bad diet and wailing into my comfort doughnuts about how it wasn't fair. DP made me feel better by uncharacteristically saying "well that's how the Proles reproduce" and

God and blast on the ovulation front. So Gonal pumping is not an exact science then. That must be very frustrating. How did the drug make you feel?

Good news that your DH is not going away just yet. I think part of the joy of being pregnant would be the not having to bloody try.

On the lap and dye front the last thing was I spoke to my GP before we moved and she said that I should mention possible endo to my new GP when I move. I haven't registered with one yet since we have only been here a couple of weeks. I must get around to it though as there have been a few weird things happening like having 3 colds in 6 weeks (apparently Endo causes a weakened immune system) and, TMI alert, a 5 day bout of bloody (literally) upset stomach that coincided with an ultra heavy period (I'm back and already turning everyone's stomach and lowering the tone!) that can also be a sign of endo on the bowel. However I'm a bit reluctant about going to the doctors because I don't want to be "hi, I'm new and I want a referral already"!!!!

Sorry to hear about your MIL problems. Hope it's nothing too bad.

Sorry x-posted with you Stasi

It's awful that you had to make a fuss before you were taken seriously and got a diagnosis of something so serious. I am shocked.

Don't feel like you can't mention your cancer. Of course it's a massive part of who you are

Hi All, Hope everyone ok!
I've just come back from my first appt at clinic, and i've come back feeling positive. DH SA quantity is on lower end of acceptable range but considered ok, so no retest for him. (He'll be happy) I've got to have a HSG make sure all in order and finally getting my day 3 blood tests!! Depending on results theory at mo is PCOS and I'll get Clomid. PCOS has potential to explain so much of otherwise annoying issues. See him again in three months having hopdfully got the HSG in first.
Also following my question a while ago about genetic link, PCOS can run in families so perhaps I need to bite the bullet and see if my mum ever heard what took her so long to conceive.

That's good news, cakes. if you get clomid you should push for monitoring scans. They don't seem to be offered routinely but clomid can make pcos ovaries hyperstimulate, which isn't good.

Hi all!
Thanks for all the messages of good luck - they worked because the HSG was fine - OK, not the best way to spend an hour - and I've certainly spent £200 on more enjoyable pursuits - such as the tasting menu at Marcus Wareing at the Berkeley (can thoroughly recommend that one), but fine.
Thanks to my tilted uterus the consultant said it was more painful than it needed to be - plus he couldn't get a good look at my left tube. He saw the dye freely flowing through the right one though and he said there's no reason to suspect the left will be playing up. Everything else looks normal. He also 'threw in' a consultation at the end (like you eurochick - last time I saw a clinical research fellow instead of a fully-fledged consultant) and he was fab - he sent me away with a scrip for another 3 rounds of Clomid then I have an open invite when I want to to go forwards for IVF. Think I'll give it a bit longer though.
As I already have two rounds of Clomid in my bedside table drawer I'm considering upping the dose to 150 - just to see whether O comes forward even more and LP gets longer. Is that lunacy without being monitored? I know 100mg only gives me one dominant follicle though so surely I won't be risking an Octomum situation?

Hi all,
I've only been away for a few days and missed so much, can't really catch up properly now but I have read everything so I will just do a little memory catch up!

pout I am so made up that you're back - great news. Sorry you didn't get your bfp in the meantime but lovely to hear from you - we were worried about you.

mrshy hope your HSG went ok? I've got mine on Thursday, I must admit I am bricking it, about both the procedure and the potential results.

poppy welcome and sorry you have been having such a hard time.

karbea and euro I totally agree with what you've said about counselling and the massive leap from a year of trying, no obvious problems to an IVF referral. I really think the NHS needs to buck up their ideas on infertility.

joycep I'm so sorry your cycle seems to have ground to a halt. I would be very with your gynae I think.

cakes glad your appointment went well.

stasi I really think it's good to talk about your experience of cancer, it shouldn't be a taboo.

Not much news here. No trying this cycle, due to the HSG, so not really paying attention to cycle days etc, but I'll be in what would normally be a two week wait soon. Trying to stay positive, but feeling very up and down still. Listening to the Zita West CD really helps, trying to do it every night :)

Big waves to everyone else and hope you have lovely relaxing weekends, I can feel a snooze on the sofa coming on...

x-post mrshy. Really glad it went ok and :) at the free consultation. Also :) at Marcus Wareing! Sorry, I have no idea about Clomid though.

Hello,

Actually feel a lot better now, had a long chat with my acupuncturist. He said he'd heard of gps saying normal and in reality the sa's weren't normal at all, he said he himself had seen some.
He said that often the process and the ups and downs of the process were often much worse than the drugs and some women have no side effects at all. I've booked dh in for acupuncture.

You know actually I think it's ok really, we will be looked after by the clinic every step of the way, which is better considering we are old foggies!

Our GP told mr euro his were normal over the phone but when we got the printout there were a couple of factors at the lower end/below the normal range. However, the fertility gynae wasn't worried because on the second SA there was again a couple of things at the lower side of normal, but they were different to the first SA "issues" so overall he wasn't worried. Neither was the gynae immunologist I saw yesterday.

MrsH I am glad the HSG wasn't too much of an ordeal. I'd be nervous about the clomid but I feel quite strongly that people shouldn't be on that unmonitored at all and was planning to pay for private scans if the NHS tried to give me unmonitored clomid cycles (but as it turned out they didn't give m any clomid at all!).

kitty the NHS classes us as trying for two years. I told the GP (when I saw him 6 months ago) that we had been trying properly and hitting the right days for 6 months but not really using contraception for a couple of years before that (in fact we were using a rough and ready version of the rhythm method, probably very ineffectually because I knew very little about my cycles and they varied in length by about a week - I wasn't charting or anything, just trying to avoid dtd about 14 days after my period). So he averaged those couple of years out to say we had been trying for a year before we properly started trying, iyswim. Which is probably about right. And as it was in that time that I got the few days of pinky watery blood (the only time in 23 years of periods) and dizziness which I think might have been a very early m/c it seems pretty likely that we were hitting the right days for some of that time, so I guess averaging it out to an extra year of trying is probably about right. It was a good way of doing it actually, because it means that I have only been mentalling about ttc for one year rather than 2.

Oo I've missed loads again, will try to catch up.

joycep sorry to hear about the five eggs that haven't hatched. Do you know for sure cos of scans/temps/opks or is it just how you feel? Sorry if you've already said and I've missed it. Maybe one snuck through? But grr for £900 for a duffer up cycle. It seems criminal you dont get some form of refund.

Karbea gosh things have moved fast, lots to get your head round. I agree with whoever said that sperms do change. It is f*ing scary to think about ivf head on. I have to think about it like I'm peeking from behind the sofa but you know we will all be here to support you through. That goes to everyone who has ivf on the horizon. I still have my head firmly in the sand.

euro your appointment sounds really productive. What have you been prescribed if you don't mind me asking? And why was he almost prescribing metformin? I'm so interested in what you're exploring, I hope you don't mind me being nosey. I feel glad that you're being given some alternative things to try, the ivf felt kind of sudden? Fingers crossed for you.

pout painting really is rubbish isn't it. One coat I can tolerate, but coats 2, 3, 4 and beyond make me in an increasingly bored and pissed off mood! I have my lap and dye in december. Lately I think more and more about endo. I currently have horrid pain during my period, one week after my period, at ovulation and a dull pains a week before. I spot a lot and have crampy bowels (sorry!) every day. Today i had spotting at cd 10. Pah. I had a nightmare last night that I had the lap and when I came round my boss was sat by my and told me they'd had to take out my womb. Agh! I woke up shouting!

Stasi I think this is the exact space for you to be able to share about your experience of cancer. It's been a big episode in your life and not that long ago, I am so sorry it took ages to get you sorted. So do feel you can share whatever is on your mind.

mrshy I'm glad the hsg wasn't too bad and that things all look normal. Om not sure how clomid works in terms of dosage. My instinct is that I'd be worried about side effects of the high dosage?

poppy hello. Sorry about all the things you've been through,it really is such a journey. I hope your stay here is short and you are in a supportive place.

kitty I'm sure your hsg will be fine. I have hsg envy! It's funny having a month off isn't it? I found the days went really quickly and being in the tww knowing I couldn't be pregnant was kind of interesting to observe? It is so up and down. Yesterday I went to a meditation class. It was...interesting! I've also borrowed a yantra mat from my yoga teacher, have a peek on amazon. It looks ridiculous and dh thinks it's but I love it! It's supposed to hit lots of acupressure points. It's spiky but doesn't hurt and makes me feel very warm after 10 minutes. I want my own. Which if I hadn't spent all of my wages this month on acupuncture, might have been an option! I'm reading the next MN book. It's not what I normally go for, but maybe that's a good thing sometimes.

cakes glad things are moving forwards for you.

I think I've said hello to everyone from today..hello to anyone I've missed. I've had a really horrible day at work. Working with 18 years olds throws up some strange things sometimes. I had a lovely acupuncture session that really did make me feel better. She has done some careful figuring out of our chances mathematically given that dh has slight sperm issues and I'm spotting all over. She reckoned a 7% chance each month, which she said averaged at one successful month for every 18 months we try. If we are lucky. Or it could be less, cos chance is like that. It kind of made me feel better and not better if that makes sense. I do like her though, she is so soothing.

I'm done in. Time for yantra mat! It really is good. Or maybe I'm just a bit strange.

sorry I haven't replied to many posts. I just wanted to ask a couple of questions.

what is the purpose of the brooking thread?

Also with HSG do you have to avoid bd afterwards or just cause of timing it interferes with ov?

cakes The brooking thread is all about positive thinking, I think, but after so many disappointments I can't quite make myself go along with it. It's nice if you are a few months in and need the posiviity though.

For my HSG I was told no swi beforehand because the dye could wash away an embryo but you can go at it afterwards and in fact the stats show that in the 3 months after having it done you have a slightly increased chance of conceiving.

wine I've been prescribed letrozole as an alternative to clomid (it apparently has fewer side effects) plus a trigger shot (to only use on monitored cycles).

The metformin was mentioned because I was diagnosed with PCOS as a teenager. My latest u/s and blood tests on the NHS didn't indicate it. They gynae I saw said that he could either give it to me to try or scan me himself and take a view (as he didn't want to rely on the NHS tests). I know people who have had terribly upset stomachs on met, so I said that after years of IBS I didn't want to try it on the offchance it might help but would take it if I did seem to still have PCOS. So he did a quick tv u/s there and then and said my ovaries didn't really look polycycstic so decided not to give it to me. I have some other PCOS symptoms though, but fairly mildly (some excess hair plus insulin resistance) so I might reconsider in future. There are loads of ladies over on the Verity boards who are using it, many with some success.

Cakes, the brooking tread is just a general ttc thread. Overall trying to maintain a positive outlook - with a fair bit of optimism thrown in! It has a nice mixture of people who've been ttc for a whole (some/ several more than a year) and some more 'fresh faced'

I think you can ttc in the cycle of a HSG if the HSG is before ov. You can't SWI BEFORE the HSG is done as the dye would dislodge any embryo etc. thus they like to do the HSG before CD10 (or at least here they do). I think a lot of people struggle to get it booked in though so end up not having it before ov and therefore not being able to ttc for that month.

Hope that makes (a little bit of) sense?

euro two years makes sense. I always forget you were kind - of not protecting for a while. In my mind two years is enough time to try naturally (with good timing) before ivf. If I was younger I'd probably be up for waiting a year or so more.

wine sorry you had a bad day, hope you are ok. And sorry about your horrid dream, horrible how our minds do stuff like that to us sometimes. How was the meditation class? I've always wondered about what a class would be like, I know it sounds stupid but I worry that you would have to sit upright. I find it impossible to meditate unless I'm lying on the floor and I don't know if they'd let you do that in class? I am weird!

Fascinated by the yantra mat, love the sound of it. My acu lady is obsessed with warming me up-I have freezing cold feet and legs-so the fact it makes you feel warm is v interesting.

That's also really interesting that she actually worked out your chances for you. I think 7% is quite comforting in a way, as although not massive it is enough to give you hope. It also makes me think that it's important to time it right every month even if you are fed up with it, because it could be your lucky month so to speak.

cakes I'm not sure if you can't have sex before the HSG, or for the whole of the cycle. I've got two pieces of paper about it from the clinic, one says no sex for the whole cycle and the other says no sex prior to the test. Anyone else know?

The brooking thread is all about positive mental attitude from what I can gather!

Karbea glad you have got over the initial shock and are feeling better.

X post euro and biccies thanks for that about the HSG.

Morning lovely ladies!

I cannot even go to work for a day and not catch up - it has taken met ages to read (and not remember) all your posts.

Good to hear the HSG was fine mrsfrittata. FWIW we had plenty of SWI after mine on day 10. But that was in June - so AGES ago now. Clearly didn't get me upduffed. But then, apparently my tubes were beautiful, probably nothing wrong with them in the first place. I did find the whole looking at your insides on the X-ray fascinating...

Good luck with the others, I agree that the consensus here is that it is uncomfortable, but not painful. I did bleed a little afterwards, so take a pad (if you don't want to go home with the massive hospital issue ones).

Fascinated by the yantra mat - although when I was reading through the acu-thread, I saw that you can also be too warm, that would be me, I guess. Loving the mental image I have of you lot now: wine on her yantra-mat, nelly with the supersecret hobby, pout muttering to her painted walls/her snake in the pram, mrsY baking microwaving fritattas. Only stasi is a real person, but one in a wedding dress

Totally sympathise about the IVF-ers and the speed things are moving. Would lead to fairly mixed feelings here too. And I echo whoever said that you should do it, when you are ready for it. Not earlier (and considering age and stuff, not much later either!)

Right, waves to all, and on to work!! (So far a much better week than last week, so I miss you lot, but at least I do what I get paid for )