Does anybody else feel isolated because of “revenge culture”? (or whatever it is called)

[Necoblast]

I don't know what to call it, I'm just going to call it “revenge culture” because it has a nice ring to it. Anyways, most people my age that I have talked to seem to be sort of vengeful and “anti-redemption” or whatever it is called. I know that nobody is perfect, but it is kind of disturbing to me when everybody around talks about how much they hate somebody else and how much they deserve to suffer. I know that I should be open minded to different beliefs but it is kind of hard when they have the opposite values to mine, it makes something as trivial as discussing a movie difficult. I would go “I hope the bad guy changes his ways in act 3” and then the other one goes “What?? The bad guy drowns in a pit of lava at the end, don't you remember? Why are you sympathizing with the bad guy?” Or we would be talking about some crime that happened and everybody would agree that the perpetrator should go to jail for life in one of those crappy prisons or get the death sentence.
These people aren't evil or anything, I am aware that they just have different values and beliefs. I don't think that I am better than them but I think their philosophy just isn't exactly for me. I have tried to learn some things from it and accept that it is the common belief, and it seems that I'm the fringe one. I am starting to feel like I live in the bizarro world or something, where people have this idea of “deserving” and that they are the ones to decide and enforce what others “deserve”.
It just feels isolating. Does anybody feel the same way?

I know what you mean Necoblast.

I feel sometimes when watching something if somebody does something that is criminal I find that Christianity may shape the comments that I may have about the suspect. I did wonder if it was making me somewhat too much of a sympathiser, but I don’t think so and I don't need to change.

However, I also do know Christians who use the Old Testament sometimes to shape their views like that God will punish their enemies etc. I had to send to one something scriptural that God does not punish human enemies today like in the Old Testament. I just ignore them now when they say this and focus on the good things that they do and say.

Yep, a large part of the public reaction to the murder of Anne Widdecombe is soaked in this. I take your point @Justmerach but modern values don't really do forgiveness.

You've posted in the Christian sub-forum @Necoblast so you'll get the views of Christians here. Are you a Christian yourself?

The views and beliefs you speak of are the opinions of worldly people, those who are walking with the values of this (fallen) world. They're not beliefs I would want to have, although I have had them in the past, but since being saved now see the error of my ways (and keep finding more things as I go on with my walk with Jesus that I need to repent of!).

I was listening to a sermon the other day talking about how the company you keep, if it's unbelievers, will tend to drag you down. Perhaps you are being called away from that. If you are a Christian then you don't need to try to 'be more open minded'. Sure, have mercy in your heart for these people but don't become their allies or affirm their actions and opinions. Christians have to walk separately from the world, and this is hard at times.

Thank you @GentleSheep and I agree. There is no mention at all in the new poster @Necoblast‘s post of Christ or any hint at Christian understanding, so I admit to reporting the post with the request to move it to Philosophy and Religion. The title Does anybody else feel isolated because of “revenge culture”? (or whatever it is called) is* very *confusing for this board as a culture of revenge is the antithesis of what it is to be a Christian. I would like to ask @Necoblast do you know the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour?

I'm not sure what's confusing about the OP. Have I missed something? Why is it necessary to ask the OP whether she identifies as Christian?

Personally I didn't find the OP's post to be clear as to whether they are a Christian or not. Whilst they mentioned 'anti-redemption' which at first made me think they are Christian, later things stated made me doubt that, 'I know that I should be open minded to different beliefs' - could mean they are a Christian but then again perhaps not. 'I think their philosophy just isn't exactly for me.' - I highly doubt a Christian would say that. Therefore to clear that up I asked, because the advice given will differ.

This is supposed to be a ‘safe’ space for Christian Mumsnetters. Yes? It has not been unknown for people to post here in bad faith. I do not think it is an unreasonable question to ask of a new poster when it is not apparent from their words who they serve. You do not want to know and that is fine. For me, I use the Spirit of Discernment. A Christian would not find the question to be offensive.

I didn’t consider that necoblast may not be a Christian.
This seemed to be about to me that others that they know may be more revengeful or judgemental and less forgiving when speaking about punishment for crime. They wrote that they have different beliefs from people like this who have these views. Their view seemed may be to be guided by Christian values such as not judging others and being forgiving..
.I did like Gentle Sheep’s post when they wrote that we need to be vigilant about not becoming an ally etc to what is wrong.

I am Christian, sorry for not specifying in the post. I take most inspiration from the gospels.

Thanks for clarifying that! Are you referring to people generally you mix with, believers and non-believers alike, or just believers?

As for those thinking they know who deserves what, well Jesus will be the judge of that, when He returns.

@Justmerach I stole that from a sermon I recently heard! I like it far better than 'love the sinner not the sin', which I think many unbelievers are very tired of hearing!

Such a person might answer your question in bad faith too. Also, with respect, it's not for you to say that a Christian wouldn't find the question offensive. As for me, I don't like it as it risks killing the discussion.

I have seen it asked a few times if people were Christians and if Jesus was their Saviour. I think people asking do have good intentions.

In a recent post someone was asked this who wrote about dressing as furry animals if this was standard practice. The OP didn’t respond to this question and they was asked again. By a reply that was given about this question It was clear that why they was asked was if they replied they would have handled this according to how the scripture suggests this should be resolved and they perhaps felt there was a need to know this.

I think there may have been some spam posts in this section, but most people you hope are good intentioned and give them that respect. However, we come from different background and denominations or none We have different lives experiences may colour how we see and respond to the world.

I am writing to state some thoughts not on the above directly.
Myself, I met a man at the beach once who was giving out Bible’s. I just let him do his thing and he asked me I was a Christian and then asked if I was born again and I jumped a bit and it made me nervous, but I was ok. The seaside is not where I was expected to meet an evangelist so I was a bit flustered with it by the end.

I know some people will not accept that some people are a Christian- you could be an alcoholic etc which I have never been. This though previous experience of not feeling accepted somewhere can colour how some may react to such a question. This in some may lead to thoughts if you are not doing something right. This post wasn’t about this but if someone had gone through something similar they may react to such a question differently

On this forum their conscience could be triggered.

Someone could take the question as harmlessly as it was intended or someone could think that something about what they have written leads you to think they could not be a Christian and they may find that difficult.

I think that a way of asking is to ask someone if you think it is needed and then state why you are asking.

Of course they could. If they reply in the affirmative I take them at their word (it is not my place to judge their heart if they are happy to lie), and allow their words to speak for them. I asked you the same question in another thread and you replied in the affirmative.

You clearly have a different opinion to me, and that is fine. I cannot imagine that anyone who loves Christ and has given their life to Him would ever find being asked 'are you a Christian' to be offensive. If it offends, then they need to examine their heart and ask why.

@Justmerach On this forum their conscience could be triggered. This forum for Christians? If a Christian feels convicted by being asked a question, then that is for them to examine their heart and is between them and the LORD.

@Necoblast Thank you for confirming.

So can you explain a little more by what you mean by a culture of revenge? Such a thing is the antithesis of Christianity.

We are warned in the Bible that we are in the world but not of it (so to expect sin and evil and wickedness) but that our mission is the love the Lord our God with all our soul, all our mind and all our strength. Also we are to love others but, to borrow @GentleSheep's interpretation of 'love the sinner, hate the sin', don't become their allies or affirm their actions and opinions.

I think in the world at large there is often a desire for revenge, and there is overlap with justice as well. I think most people would want to see justice for a wrong done to them (I'm thinking if they've been a victim of a crime) - the perpetrator should undergo some consequence for their actions. But where it falls over into revenge is where poeple start calling for death penalty, or for people to be 'locked up and throw away the key'... and so on. Or where people's families are targeted, if a relative has committed a crime. There's a fine line between justice and revenge, and we're not always very good at seeing the difference.
All of that seems in direct contrast to a God who forgives, who loves, who redeems - who doesn't give us what we 'deserve'..... the idea of someone beoming a Christian in prison and being remorseful for their crimes (for example) is often dismissed by the wider population. They're perceived to be 'playing the system', trying to get out early, doing it for show, and so on. No recognition that people can and do change.
The 'world view' is that when people do soemthing wrong, they 'deserve' punishment for it, and (depending on what the thing was), they're beyond hope. The 'God view' is that we've all done something wrong, and 'deserve' punishment for is, but we don't get it, and no one is beyond hope.

The Bible says that we should follow the rule of government's. I think this to can be taken that we can allow people to be treated by the laws for crimes and don't need to plea for something contrary to a legal justice. We have to have make sure that the justice is legal. What I am saying is we do not have to plea for clemency when justice is there legally. God will do his bit and the government's will do theirs with sentencing.

Romans 13:1-2 states,
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established

1 Peter 2:13-17

Submit yourselves to every ordinanc
Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

I wouldn't say calling for the death penalty (for murder) is about revenge. I think it's totally in line with God's law. The Noahic covenant (Genesis 9:5-6) states: "And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being. Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind." This is repeated later on my Moses and in Leviticus.

This was clearly something God sanctioned.

Leviticus 24 was about an eye for an eye-Lex talionis but Jesus brought this law to a logical conclusion by (Matthew -5:-38-48)
" Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also."

So personally I would say we are not do this and murder it is not lawful for Christ to for us to. This is summed up in (Matthew 5) I guess the government if legal and seen as strictly of the law may be able to claim it was legal. I don't like it myself but personal v governments/justice system is a bit different.

I think I would ask whether 'an accounting' does mean death, and I would also wonder - well that's the levitical code to to Israelites, Jesus came to fulfil that law and also turn it on its head. In Matthew 5 he says 'You've heard it said an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, but I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also'.
And then he goes on to say 'love your enemies'....
Which completely goes contrary to what we think of (and often want) as 'justice' or even revenge.

Yes I really shouldn't have quoted the Leviticus part as that pertained to the society of Israel long ago. But the Noahic covenant still stands. I don't see why God would recant on His word. If you look through various translations from different versions, verse 6 specifies the life of a person.

NIV: “Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind."

ESV: “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image."

KJV: "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man."

NASB: “Whoever sheds human blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made mankind."

and so on.

I can understand 'accounting' as in the person who has killed someone must give an explanation of what happened, because not all deaths are deliberately caused.

'Love your enemies' isn't about civil justice though? It's a command given at the personal level, that's my understanding of it. Also it's not in contradiction of God's original edict to take the life of a murderer. Someone who is my enemy isn't necessarily a murderer. There have been cases where parents have forgiven the murderer of their child. That's separate from whether the murderer should or shouldn't receive the death penalty. Our government may bring in laws that murder requires the death penalty (or some other form of punishment), this is a separate matter.

I mean, that's my understanding of it. I was very anti death penalty till recently, now I think it has a place.

The UN is against the death penalty. They have an article from 2020 which I think still sums up their views. I find at times their values echo some Christian values like the United Nations declarations of Human rights law on brotherhood etc. It might be interesting for some of you to compare your thoughts to their own. Not all countries are joined to the UN, but there are certain they still have to follow.
https://unsdg.un.org/sites/default/files/2020-03/Death-Penalty.PDF

I don't agree with the death penalty at all. The verses quoted above would suggest that executing a person is playing God. Or alternatively it means people can take the law into their own hands. Or simply what goes around comes around. They don't authorise state-sanctioned killings and that's leaving aside miscarriages of justice. There are lots of good reasons why capital punishment has been abolished in most countries since WW2 (the outlier being some parts of the United States).

Back to the OP (who I note has not returned), I didn't assume she was referring to Christians. For my part, some of the best exponents of Christian values I've met haven't been Christians, but a lot of public discourse now seems to make light of a lot of bad behaviour and I think part of that is because of self-righteousness and a lack of forgiveness in an increasingly post-Christian environment.

No, I don't agree with the death penalty either. It smacks of revenge, not justice. And goes against 'Thou shalt not kill' in the ten commandments. And also makes the State no better than the person who's committed the crime. We say it's against the law for someone to murder someone else, but for the State to do it, that's fine?

Sorry I was not talking about politics. I did not intend for this to become a dbate. Sorry for lack of replies the website is so laggy it takesone minute to write a word. This message alone took 5 minutes. My belief was that it is not our job to punish others because it is God's job, and we should show kindness to our enemies. (Obviously also prevent future harm so thats why we have jail and rehabilitation)
But i dont want to debate, I just wanted to know if anybody felt isolated because of how it is not a common view (among both christians and non christians) and how often people talk about wanting harm on others