What does your Church do, that you really wish they didn't?

[Sausagenbacon]

I'm obviously not going to do a flounce on the basis of this, but..
We used to have hymn numbers in the service sheet (there's no boards). But they've stopped doing that, in the aim of inclusion. Instead, the hymn numbers are announced during the service.
Which is ok, except when we stand to offer one another a sign of peace.
So the clergy say 'you may now offer each other a sign of peace, and the next hymn is xx'
Written down, it doesn't sound that bad, but it actually feels like an interruption in a lovely part of the service.

I know families sometimes choose to have the funeral at the regular daily mass in our town church, particularly if they went to it themselves. It can be a little disconcerting at first hearing about someone you never knew, but learning about them and praying for them and with the family can be enriching.

I think I found the Catholic funeral just so different to our CoS ones. There, the family had to fit in around the daily mass whereas with ours it's all about what the family wants.

A Catholic funeral is about saying goodbye to the deceased, but more importantly, about praying for God to receive their soul. Community solidarity, and the feelings of the survivors, though important, are not the central issue. The relationship with the dead is different - that is why we continue to pray for them.

Now this is really hitting a point I struggle with , and part of my somewhat heretical beliefs (and massively off tangent for this thread)….theres a certain song “heaven is a place when nothing ever happens” …the idea I have to spend eternity listening to the various godly bodies singing combined with all those hanging about in eternity with all the goody souls I’ve ever met fills me with dread! It is actually my idea of hell.

heres where I have ended up in the idea of heavenly eternity…. Image that 1 nano second of bliss you’ve experienced in your life..for me it is lying on a moor in the sun with a skylark just at crescendo of its song above me, that pitch perfect state of bliss ..now stick there. With No sense of time. Just that stuck in 1 single nanosecond of bliss. The eternity of a single fleeting moment. That is althogher a more appealing sense of heaven..nothing but a single instance with nothing before and nothing after.

that’s no time for acts of worship, hymns, banging tambourines or catching up in godly acts.

and as for hell..? Rejection. Complete rejection . Endless and unstoppable. With all the loss of hope and despair that comes form it. I sadly have stood on the edge of that and know that this mental torture is about as worse of the physical. agian stuck in that single instance of abject mental pain.

hey, as I say probably heretical …but that makes way more sense to me than endless holy bodies twanging their sweet harps day after day😳🤷🏼‍♀️

God is not contained by time.

I loved that bit at the end of The Good Place when they finally realised that the pleasant day-to-day existence, nice and fulfilling and eventually a bit dull, was only the waiting room for the bright light beyond, unlimited by time of space or self or consciousness.

the idea I have to spend eternity listening to the various godly bodies singing combined with all those hanging about in eternity with all the goody souls I’ve ever met fills me with dread!

I get that @Marshbird ! I don't think it will be everyone floating around singing songs / listening to other people singing. I do think there will be an element of normal life but pure. However I do believe there will be a lot of worship of God too - that's pictured in the Bible. But we will all be happy to worship him because we will see him face to face.

@Marshbird When you think of heaven, think of it with this in mind -
The Bible says, 'He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or mourning, or crying or pain, for the former things have passed away'. Rev 21:4.

If the above is true, then that will be at odds with your idea of a place that will fill you with dread. The idea of a place where 'nothing' happens except to stand around bored (on wispy clouds of course!) out of our minds listening to the same songs being sung for eternity is a completely false notion created by humans desperately trying to imagine what heaven might be like but failing miserably. Nothing about it aligns with God's nature. When God created Adam, the first assignment he gave him was to till the land and have dominion over all the creatures, he didn't tell him to lie down and observe the angels, so why would we?

The bible also says, 'Eye has not seen nor ear has heard, neither has ENTERED INTO THE HEART OF MAN what God has in store for those who love Him' 1 Cor 2:9. This gives us another clue that's its impossible in our current state to fully comprehend what God has prepared for us (save for the few things revealed in scripture) and God is not a narcissist who will make promises and then give you a be a shock when you arrive there, but you can be certain that nothing you've experienced on earth, no matter how wonderful will ever compare.

I believe Heaven will be filled with many things to experience and do, we won't just be sitting there singing praises! It's pretty much unimaginable, how it will be. We'll have new bodies for a start, no illness, no death, no sin nature. God will have created a whole new Heaven and Earth so we'll have that to explore. I can't wait to meet all those old testament prophets and characters I've read about! And maybe to be able to speak to animals! Can you imagine?

The great lie is thinking that Hell will be a fun place whilst Heaven is boring!

Thanks @DeanElderberry for the clarification. I thought there must be something I didn't understand because everyone was saying what a lovely service it was but I didn't as I felt it was very impersonal.

Very much in agreement with your use of Revelation 21:4 - what a wonderful experience it will be!

I would just gently add that you have only partially stated what Paul was saying in 1 Corinthians 2. You quoted an isolated verse, but when the whole passage is considered the emphasis changes quite distinctly, in an absolutely glorious way.

”However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

But as it is written:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.” But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.

For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.

For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?”
But we have the mind of Christ.” 🔥🙌🏻

I would say it’s impossible for the natural (ie unregenerate) man to comprehend these things of God with our earthly senses of sight, hearing, imagination… they can only be revealed by the Spirit of God to our spirits.

Deanelderberry - I’ve been enjoying The Good Place, now ruined by your unflagged spoiler.

Sorry @Sandylittletoes - that happens to me too, but I reckon choosing to watch things five years late means I'm not living in a spoiler-free universe. Don't worry, there are still surprises, even after (and about) the things I mentioned.

@LeaningOnTheEverlastingArms . Thanks for your comments. The scripture i quoted is a purposefully selected succinct quote from what Paul was saying because that's where i wanted to place the emphasis in relation to the poster's 'heaven' dilemma.

I'm not trying to deliver a bible study to @Marshbird my intent is to try and alleviate her fears by showing her through scripture that she will be at peace in heaven and has nothing to dread.

The conclusion from it was that the question of what we will be doing in heaven has not been fully revealed to us yet. No matter how spirit filled or mature we are, no one can fully comprehend what HEAVEN will be like beyond Rev 21:4. - the scripture quoted was addressing Christians and by you quoting more paragraphs you have gone off course. When Paul says there is a spiritual wisdom that it shared amongst mature Christians he is referring to spiritual discernment in their walk with Christ not the minutae detail of our activities in heaven.

Are there things the Spirit reveals to us? of course. The Spirit reveals to us God's wisdom & that we are sinners in need of a saviour, it reveals the truth to us & leads us in everything we need to remain in Christ, but God is STILL sovereign and decides between what we need to know v what we'd like to know. Rev 21:4 gives us a framework within which to imagine heaven, anything beyond that remains a mystery.

I think there's a bit in one of the Adrian Plass books (maybe the Sacred Diary one) where he admits to being scared of death. The speaker asks him what he really likes and he says "Cricket".
The speaker says that to him Heaven will be better than being selected for England and hitting the winning wicket at Lords.

And I think that's what we need to know. It doesn't matter if we do spend the entire time singing, or whatever - whatever we do, will be the most wonderful thing ever to us.
If we do spend the entire time singing praises, then we will be doing that because we want to and it's the best thing ever.

I think some of these thoughts are best discussed with church ministers who may be able to implement some change. I think also as well a discussion may be useful in some church's especially that have schools and families who attend in their local areas.

For me I have quite severe sensory needs diagnosed.. I though attend a silent chapel servoce at 8am which is very quiet and my needs are met. I have read some people have experienced issues with sound levels.

Quite understandly a family may struggle more to also meet a 8am service.

I was thinking some family orientated services on a Sunday start at 10m, I have been wondering if an extra half an hour or hour opening to around 11am may make some services more likely to be attended on a Sunday.

For me my nerves are much more woken up come evening service, but I do not attend this service anymore usually where the organ is usually played and the choir sing..Certainly when I did attend, I did hear some beautiful music in my time.

Really if you want quiet services which is quite express then the Anglican/Catholic services are perhaps what could consider as well

Other conservations may be need to take as place and meeting the needs of all the community can be challenging as well.

Our service starts at 11.30 but attendance is dwindling. There used to be an evening service but stopped for that reason. It wasn't worth heating the church and paying an organisf for 5 people.

I'd love an 8am service!

I agree that sometimes discussions are needed, rather than just moaning about it :)

However you do get resistance to change - I assume you've heard the joke about the minister who wanted to move the piano position and moved it an inch at a time over two years.

I remember being asked to represent the parents at a meeting about "moving the children's work forward" at the church I was currently attending, which had had a drop in numbers in the previous couple of years.
Every suggestion I put forward was met with:
That won't work
We tried that and that won't work (later I talked with some older parents who disagreed that it had been tried)
Children won't like that
Health and safety!

So the conclusion at the end was that they weren't trying anything new and one of the old things that they wanted to go and I said "If it must go, there must be something in its place that has a similar function" - guess what! When I left that church around 5 years later, they had stopped it, but not put anything new in.

It wasn't that they couldn't see change was needed-it was that they didn't want actually to implement any change. They wanted a meeting to conclude that they could not change things.
Silly things like I suggested to encourage children participating in the children's talk at the start of the service, they could do rewards.

1. Not sweets. Parents don't like that.
2. Not stickers. That's too like school
3. Not a stamp on the hand, that's messy
4. Not a small reward because that devalues the "birthday pencils"
5. Not clapping because that takes too long
6. Not a biscuit because different children like different biscuits
7. Not a "reward card" with they got a stamp for attending, and a stamp for any participation and when they got to 10 (or whatever) stamps they could exchange for something like a pencil. Apparently this was far too complicated and the children would lose it
8. As above but reward card kept at church. The ministers would forget to stamp them...

Their conclusion was the best thing they could do was to drop the children's bit at the start of the service because the children weren't really participating in it, which was frustrating because they had a reasonable number of children attending and this was the only acknowledgement during the service that children existed.

Sometimes (like volume as mentioned earlier) it can be a case of people not thinking, or assuming everyone likes what they do.
I gave feedback to <church festival> many times that the volume of the children's worship in particular was not inclusive because children with sensory issues wouldn't want attend with that volume. I was particularly frustrated when I said this in a meeting with a group that was talking about disable discrimination in church. I was shocked when their response was along the lines of:
Well the majority of children like it loud, so they should put up with it.
Tbh I'm not sure the majority did like it that loud. Certainly all three of my dc (one of whom is ND) found it too loud. The other two put up with it, but I remember well how ds walked into one meeting and fled with his hands over his ears then refused to go back.
That would be one of the times when I'd have said it was an easy decision; I very much doubt any child would have refused to go because the music was too quiet. But ds wasn't the only one that couldn't access it because it was too loud.

But the assumption was that most of the children liked it that loud so it had to stay.

Our town church has a 8:00 Mass which people from all the rural parishes can go to - at the moment I'm sticking with just the Saturday evening one, but 8:00 suited me when I was looking after my parents and I really enjoyed it as a way to start Sunday.

Saturday evening in the village gets a sprinkling of children with parents, and a usual congregation of about 70, which the old-timers think a bit low, but the village population is less than 1,000. If it's an anniversary or months mind it can stretch to a standing-room-only 200+. Usually no music except occasionally at an anniversary, and Mass lasts less than 35 minutes.

Our priest likes to get us to think of others from time to time - over the last year he has collections in his three churches for toys for the regional womens-and-childrens' shelter, Easter eggs for them, and nice pyjamas and dressing gowns. Latest request, after a prompt from a co-ordinator with homeless services, is dental hygiene products - he'll have boxes full by the end of the month.

We had a new (US) minister. Not sure if it was the way they do things over there but he wanted to change absolutely everything immediately.
"Let's get rid of that old chair" so he moved it out into one of the back rooms. It was a chair donated by the family of a minister who died very suddenly (never turned up for church one Sunday morning).

There are ways of making changes.

Suggest this for a hymn to him. It can be sung to "The Church's one foundation".

The Church's Restoration
In eighteen-eighty-three
Has left for contemplation
Not what there used to be.
How well the ancient woodwork
Looks round the Rect'ry hall,
Memorial of the good work
Of him who plann'd it all.

He who took down the pew-ends
And sold them anywhere
But kindly spared a few ends
Work'd up into a chair.
O worthy persecution
Of dust! O hue divine!
O cheerful substitution,
Thou varnishéd pitch-pine!

Church furnishing! Church furnishing!
Sing art and crafty praise!
He gave the brass for burnishing
He gave the thick red baize,
He gave the new addition,
Pull'd down the dull old aisle, —
To pave the sweet transition
He gave th' encaustic tile.

Of marble brown and veinéd
He did the pulpit make;
He order'd windows stainéd
Light red and crimson lake.
Sing on, with hymns uproarious,
Ye humble and aloof,
Look up! and oh how glorious
He has restored the roof!

We did for a while have a priest I disliked, who made it all about him, expected us to sit and listen to him performing songs after mass was over, and picked on shy children to answer questions.

Our older priest though I was being silly, but quite funny

Then my bête noire ran away with the choir-mistress.

When your thumbs start to prick . . .

Thankfully the American guy left during Covid.
We had another one whom I disliked and actually attended another church during his tenure. He claimed all his children were gifted (mine were around the same age) and was heard to say he'd have to home educate his because none of the locals were suitably intelligent for his to mix with.

Nowadays I would challenge him on it but
I was a wimp back then.
His wife ran off with a visiting youth pastor and he left so I returned to the fold.

I'm sorry to hear that you've been feeling this way about the Church of England. Most of us feel disappointment, hurt, or even disillusionment when Churches or Christians fail to live up to their values. If you'd like why not share what’s been troubling you?

I'm so sorry to hear about your experience, especially during such a vulnerable time. Being part of a church should come with a sense of community and care, particularly when you’re going through something as serious as hospital care. It's understandable why you’d feel disappointed, but it's encouraging that you're still looking for a new church it shows your faith is important to you.

I suspect that all the denominations have similar skeletons in the closet, but the C of E has both had a big one which has hit the news, and also is easier to get press interested because it's the C of E (or Catholic).

A bit like if kids are caught doing something naughty from the local small private it's a small mention on Fb local and then forgotten, but if they're from Eton it'll hit the major papers/BBC.

And people who abuse are manipulative. They will know how to hide it from their superiors - or those they know may speak out and be believed.
Much as we'd like to believe that leaders will do what's right by everyone, they're likely to know the people at the top at least at friend of friend level and that's going to effect how they respond to reports.

I think there needs to be an independent of denomination organisation that can investigate such things without the baggage of knowing the people involved - or the pressure that that area may be under.
For example, If there's a shortage of ministers, then their ministry may just be lost, and people don't want to be responsible for that.

Yes the CofE has done wrong. But I don't think they're the lone culprit. In fact, I can say with confidence that I know they're not.