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What does your Church do, that you really wish they didn't?

296 replies

Sausagenbacon · 24/12/2024 09:32

I'm obviously not going to do a flounce on the basis of this, but..
We used to have hymn numbers in the service sheet (there's no boards). But they've stopped doing that, in the aim of inclusion. Instead, the hymn numbers are announced during the service.
Which is ok, except when we stand to offer one another a sign of peace.
So the clergy say 'you may now offer each other a sign of peace, and the next hymn is xx'
Written down, it doesn't sound that bad, but it actually feels like an interruption in a lovely part of the service.

OP posts:
PraiseHim · 27/01/2025 11:06

johnyhadasister · 12/01/2025 21:14

So basically the soul is immortal, hell is definitely in the Bible, the unrepentant sinners will be punished

If the soul is immortal, how is it the wicked will be destroyed?

And ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith they LORD of hosts
Malachi 4:3

And yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be:yea, though shalt diligently consider this place, and it shall not be
Psalm 37:10

But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of LORD shall be ashes under the fat of lambs: they shall consume : into smoke shall they consume away
Psalm 37:20

Hell is eternal separation from God. The God of heaven is the God of Love. His character is of light, out of mercy shall they be destroyed eternally. The spirit of darkness would have them suffer eternally.

Hell as an eternal punishment for the wicked and the immortal soul are doctrine of men

And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many
Matthew 24:4-5

PraiseHim · 27/01/2025 11:15

RaraRachael · 13/01/2025 16:36

@ballroompink I'd have to leave a church if dancing, jumping around and shouting became the expectation.

Exactly, it would make me wonder which spirit I was worshipping, as the God of Heaven is a God of Order (1Corinthians 14:33)

AlteredStater · 27/01/2025 11:20

Hell is eternal separation from God.

My pastor was talking about this yesterday, he said no Hell isn't eternal separation from God, not entirely. You would not be separated from God's wrath. That's all you would get, none of the good things God has promised us, you'd be left only with his wrath.

PraiseHim · 27/01/2025 11:40

Immortality comes at the 2nd coming of Christ

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory
1Corinthians 15:

And, behold, I come quickly: and my reward is with me, to give every man according to his work shall be.
I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city
Revelation 22:12-14

PraiseHim · 27/01/2025 11:45

PraiseHim · 27/01/2025 11:40

Immortality comes at the 2nd coming of Christ

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory
1Corinthians 15:

And, behold, I come quickly: and my reward is with me, to give every man according to his work shall be.
I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city
Revelation 22:12-14

The Revelation Scripture above also puts the worldly doctrine of a millennium rule on earth in its place too

AlteredStater · 27/01/2025 12:19

PraiseHim · 27/01/2025 11:40

Immortality comes at the 2nd coming of Christ

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory
1Corinthians 15:

And, behold, I come quickly: and my reward is with me, to give every man according to his work shall be.
I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city
Revelation 22:12-14

My view is (and I don't expect others here to embrace this as I understand it's not a commonly-held belief in the UK church denominations) that the invisible Church is gathered up to Jesus (popularly called the Rapture) and at that point we believers are clothed in our immortal bodies. That doesn't include the OT saints nor those who will come to Christ during the Tribulation. At this time the believers are judged according to their works. This isn't about salvation, for we are already saved and will have eternal life, this is about the works we carried out since becoming believers. Our works will be 'refined'. Those that remain will determine our rewards. These rewards pertain to the Millenial Kingdom and any authority we may be given during that time.

The timing of this gathering isn't known, but it's before or at the beginning of the Tribulation and before the Millennial Kingdom which begins on Christ's second coming to Earth (with us believers in tow) at the end of the Tribulation. Christ defeats the army of the Beast who is flung into the abyss for 1,000 years, and we the believers and those who survive the Tribulation will be on Earth for that time, until the final Judgment and then the Earth and Heaven are completely renewed and Satan is sent to the pit of fire for all time along with his demons and unbelievers. In the eternal Kingdom all believers are equal, unlike in the Millennial Kingdom.

PraiseHim · 27/01/2025 12:24

AlteredStater · 27/01/2025 11:20

Hell is eternal separation from God.

My pastor was talking about this yesterday, he said no Hell isn't eternal separation from God, not entirely. You would not be separated from God's wrath. That's all you would get, none of the good things God has promised us, you'd be left only with his wrath.

When something becomes ashes, there is nothing left of the former but ashes

AlteredStater · 27/01/2025 12:34

PraiseHim · 27/01/2025 12:24

When something becomes ashes, there is nothing left of the former but ashes

If someone is cremated, their physical body becomes ashes, but their soul remains.

PraiseHim · 27/01/2025 12:37

AlteredStater · 27/01/2025 12:19

My view is (and I don't expect others here to embrace this as I understand it's not a commonly-held belief in the UK church denominations) that the invisible Church is gathered up to Jesus (popularly called the Rapture) and at that point we believers are clothed in our immortal bodies. That doesn't include the OT saints nor those who will come to Christ during the Tribulation. At this time the believers are judged according to their works. This isn't about salvation, for we are already saved and will have eternal life, this is about the works we carried out since becoming believers. Our works will be 'refined'. Those that remain will determine our rewards. These rewards pertain to the Millenial Kingdom and any authority we may be given during that time.

The timing of this gathering isn't known, but it's before or at the beginning of the Tribulation and before the Millennial Kingdom which begins on Christ's second coming to Earth (with us believers in tow) at the end of the Tribulation. Christ defeats the army of the Beast who is flung into the abyss for 1,000 years, and we the believers and those who survive the Tribulation will be on Earth for that time, until the final Judgment and then the Earth and Heaven are completely renewed and Satan is sent to the pit of fire for all time along with his demons and unbelievers. In the eternal Kingdom all believers are equal, unlike in the Millennial Kingdom.

This is classic twisted scripture. Truth, with error mingled in

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness
Romans 1:18

who changed the Truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen
Romans 1:25

Sorry Sister, it’s error.

PraiseHim · 27/01/2025 12:42

AlteredStater · 27/01/2025 12:34

If someone is cremated, their physical body becomes ashes, but their soul remains.

The soul doesn’t become immortal until the second coming of Christ. I just gave the biblical doctrine for that. Scripture is the word of God, not mine

AlteredStater · 27/01/2025 12:43

PraiseHim · 27/01/2025 12:37

This is classic twisted scripture. Truth, with error mingled in

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness
Romans 1:18

who changed the Truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen
Romans 1:25

Sorry Sister, it’s error.

It's Dispensationalism. I know some view that with suspicion and think it's wrong. I don't agree, I find it a very helpful view and have an excellent pastor to explain it.

PraiseHim · 27/01/2025 13:42

AlteredStater · 27/01/2025 12:43

It's Dispensationalism. I know some view that with suspicion and think it's wrong. I don't agree, I find it a very helpful view and have an excellent pastor to explain it.

Edited

I believe the Word of God over man every time, you are free to believe how you wish

AlteredStater · 27/01/2025 14:47

PraiseHim · 27/01/2025 13:42

I believe the Word of God over man every time, you are free to believe how you wish

I'm not believing 'how I wish' but am systematically being guided through the Scriptures verse by verse so as to understand them better and be able to apply them to my life.

PraiseHim · 27/01/2025 15:44

AlteredStater · 27/01/2025 14:47

I'm not believing 'how I wish' but am systematically being guided through the Scriptures verse by verse so as to understand them better and be able to apply them to my life.

Dispensatialism doesn’t line up to biblical doctrine, so it’s against God’s Word.

There are only two spirits in this world, the Spirit of Truth or the spirit of error

AlteredStater · 27/01/2025 16:06

PraiseHim · 27/01/2025 15:44

Dispensatialism doesn’t line up to biblical doctrine, so it’s against God’s Word.

There are only two spirits in this world, the Spirit of Truth or the spirit of error

I disagree with you on the first point, and I'm not the only one who does so, many who are far, far more qualified than me espouse Dispensationalism. It's fine, I don't expect any support for it on a UK forum.

ChristmasStars · 27/01/2025 16:07

AlteredStater · 27/01/2025 14:47

I'm not believing 'how I wish' but am systematically being guided through the Scriptures verse by verse so as to understand them better and be able to apply them to my life.

I really appreciate that you have come to this through study and searching the word.

AlteredStater · 27/01/2025 16:12

ChristmasStars · 27/01/2025 16:07

I really appreciate that you have come to this through study and searching the word.

Thank you. I have a fantastic pastor who's a theologian and has read over 2,000 publications on the subject. I wasn't even aware Dispensationalism existed having been brought up as an Anglican!

ChristmasStars · 27/01/2025 16:13

That's great. I would probably come to a different conclusion from you but I love that you're really searching into the subject.

AlteredStater · 27/01/2025 16:15

ChristmasStars · 27/01/2025 16:13

That's great. I would probably come to a different conclusion from you but I love that you're really searching into the subject.

Yes and I am totally fine with others who embrace Covenant theology. I still hold all the core beliefs of Christianity. Who was it that said 'we are closer to God when asking questions'? Think it was a Rabbi.

PraiseHim · 27/01/2025 16:47

AlteredStater · 27/01/2025 16:06

I disagree with you on the first point, and I'm not the only one who does so, many who are far, far more qualified than me espouse Dispensationalism. It's fine, I don't expect any support for it on a UK forum.

I agree with what the bible says, not what men think it says

Grace and peace to you

ChristmasStars · 27/01/2025 17:05

AlteredStater · 27/01/2025 16:15

Yes and I am totally fine with others who embrace Covenant theology. I still hold all the core beliefs of Christianity. Who was it that said 'we are closer to God when asking questions'? Think it was a Rabbi.

Yes it's good to remember what we have in common. We are never all going to have the same views on every point of doctrine because there are different interpretations but the core beliefs hold us together.

FuzzyPuffling · 27/01/2025 17:09

ChristmasStars · 27/01/2025 17:05

Yes it's good to remember what we have in common. We are never all going to have the same views on every point of doctrine because there are different interpretations but the core beliefs hold us together.

I totally agree with this.

LeaningOnTheEverlastingArms · 27/01/2025 17:38

FuzzyPuffling · 27/01/2025 17:09

I totally agree with this.

me too.

I’m reminded of the aphorism
In essentials, unity;
in non-essentials, liberty;
in all things, charity,”

ChristmasStars · 27/01/2025 18:32

LeaningOnTheEverlastingArms · 27/01/2025 17:38

me too.

I’m reminded of the aphorism
In essentials, unity;
in non-essentials, liberty;
in all things, charity,”

Very good.

PilgriminProgress · 27/01/2025 22:45

AlteredStater · 27/01/2025 12:19

My view is (and I don't expect others here to embrace this as I understand it's not a commonly-held belief in the UK church denominations) that the invisible Church is gathered up to Jesus (popularly called the Rapture) and at that point we believers are clothed in our immortal bodies. That doesn't include the OT saints nor those who will come to Christ during the Tribulation. At this time the believers are judged according to their works. This isn't about salvation, for we are already saved and will have eternal life, this is about the works we carried out since becoming believers. Our works will be 'refined'. Those that remain will determine our rewards. These rewards pertain to the Millenial Kingdom and any authority we may be given during that time.

The timing of this gathering isn't known, but it's before or at the beginning of the Tribulation and before the Millennial Kingdom which begins on Christ's second coming to Earth (with us believers in tow) at the end of the Tribulation. Christ defeats the army of the Beast who is flung into the abyss for 1,000 years, and we the believers and those who survive the Tribulation will be on Earth for that time, until the final Judgment and then the Earth and Heaven are completely renewed and Satan is sent to the pit of fire for all time along with his demons and unbelievers. In the eternal Kingdom all believers are equal, unlike in the Millennial Kingdom.

Without any scriptural grounding you state that the Church will be gathered to Jesus in the Rapture before or at the beginning of the Tribulation. However, the Bible provides no explicit evidence for a pre-Tribulation Rapture. Instead, Scripture emphasizes that believers will endure trials and persecution. Matthew 24:29-31: “Immediately after the tribulation of those days... the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the peoples of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.” This passage places the gathering of believers after the Tribulation, not before. John 16:33: “In this world, you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.” Jesus assures believers of tribulation in this world. The notion that Christians will be removed before suffering contradicts the overarching biblical theme of perseverance through trials.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is often cited as evidence for a Rapture, but it speaks of the resurrection of the dead and the gathering of believers at Christ’s coming, without specifying timing relative to the Tribulation. You argue that Old Testament saints and Tribulation believers are excluded from the initial gathering. Yet Scripture consistently describes salvation and glorification as one unified event for all God’s people. Hebrews 11:39-40: “These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.”
Old Testament saints and New Testament believers are made perfect together. Revelation 7:9-14: The great multitude in white robes who come out of the Tribulation includes believers from “every nation, tribe, people, and language.” There is no distinction between groups in terms of their ultimate glorification. The idea that believers’ works will determine their authority in the Millennial Kingdom is challenged by the equality of all believers in Christ. Ephesians 2:8-9: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast.”
Our salvation and eternal standing before God are based entirely on grace, not works. The Bible does teach rewards (e.g., 1 Corinthians 3:12-15), but these are not tied to hierarchical authority during a Millennial Kingdom. Galatians 3:28: “There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”
The concept of a literal 1,000-year earthly reign of Christ is debatable. Many Christians interpret Revelation 20 symbolically, not as a literal timeline. Revelation 20:4-6: This passage mentions the 1,000 years but is highly symbolic. The focus is on Christ’s victory and reign, not necessarily a literal earthly timeline. John 18:36: “Jesus said, ‘My kingdom is not of this world.’” Jesus emphasizes the spiritual nature of His kingdom, which challenges the notion of an earthly political reign during the Millennium. The claim that believers are unequal in the Millennial Kingdom but equal in the eternal state is speculative and lacks clear biblical support. Revelation 21:3-4: In the eternal Kingdom, God’s dwelling is with all His people. The emphasis is on fellowship with God, not distinctions or hierarchies among believers. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52: “We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.”

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