What does your Church do, that you really wish they didn't?

[Sausagenbacon]

I'm obviously not going to do a flounce on the basis of this, but..
We used to have hymn numbers in the service sheet (there's no boards). But they've stopped doing that, in the aim of inclusion. Instead, the hymn numbers are announced during the service.
Which is ok, except when we stand to offer one another a sign of peace.
So the clergy say 'you may now offer each other a sign of peace, and the next hymn is xx'
Written down, it doesn't sound that bad, but it actually feels like an interruption in a lovely part of the service.

@PilgriminProgress thank you for such a long and detailed reply!

I'll answer this in sections as I'm not sure how long this will be! I will state at the outset for anyone else reading that there are a number of variations on the timing of the Rapture (for those who believe in it and many do not). Some think it'll be mid-Tribulation or even Post-Trib. It's not a hill I'm going to die on but so far I lean towards pre-Trib.

You state that the Church will be gathered to Jesus (the Rapture) before or at the beginning of the Tribulation. However, the Bible provides no explicit evidence for a pre-Tribulation Rapture. Instead, Scripture emphasizes that believers will endure trials and persecution. Matthew 24:29-31: “Immediately after the tribulation of those days... the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the peoples of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.” This passage places the gathering of believers after the Tribulation, not before.

Yes I agree with you that there's no explicit evidence, and that Matt.24:29-31 refers to the second coming at the end of the Tribulation. No arguments there. However where I differ is in who the elect mentioned here are, and would argue that these are the Jewish remnant who have become believers during the Tribulation, along with those Gentiles who have also come to faith during this time and survived, as well as the OT saints. The Church believers will have already been gathered prior to the Tribulation or in its early stages as mentioned by 1 Thess.4:16-18.

Also see Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn." This prophetically refers to the mourning over the crucifixion of the Messiah (the firstborn over all Creation Colossians 1:15) and the realisation of this wrongdoing, which leads to repentance of the nation of Israel, which has been God's plan all along.

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John 16:33: “In this world, you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.” Jesus assures believers of tribulation in this world. The notion that Christians will be removed before suffering contradicts the overarching biblical theme of perseverance through trials.*

Of course we Christians have suffered terrible persecution since the very beginning, as we were warned by Jesus. I do see where you are coming from with this, but the Tribulation will be so much worse than any of what has gone before, and on a world-wide scale. I believe God will spare the Church from this. The Rapture is in line with Jewish wedding traditions if you think of Christ and his bride the Church. The groom (Jesus) goes to his father's house to prepare a place for us (John 14:3) - that's what He is doing now. Then he will return at a time we don't know, an Jesus doesn't know, but God the Father knows. At that point Jesus will meet us in the air to collect us and take us back to the Wedding feast in Heaven.

...........

You argue that Old Testament saints and Tribulation believers are excluded from the initial gathering. Yet Scripture consistently describes salvation and glorification as one unified event for all God’s people. Hebrews 11:39-40: “These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.” Old Testament saints and New Testament believers are made perfect together.

If the Rapture is pre-Trib then Tribulation believers/saints would of course be excluded as the Tribulation is yet to happen. So if the Church is removed, then the Tribulation events begin, from that point on for the next 7.5 years others will come to faith (although under extremely difficult conditions) and will have to wait for the second coming of Jesus, along with the Jewish remnant who will also come to faith at that time. You could say it's a logical outworking of that timing.

I will look into this further though, I am certainly not 'done and dusted' in my beliefs there.

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Revelation 7:9-14: The great multitude in white robes who come out of the Tribulation includes believers from “every nation, tribe, people, and language.” There is no distinction between groups in terms of their ultimate glorification. The idea that believers’ works will determine their authority in the Millennial Kingdom is challenged by the equality of all believers in Christ. Ephesians 2:8-9: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast.”

I should probably stress again I'd argue there are two Kingdoms to come, firstly the Millennial Kingdom (again for anyone else reading, not everyone agrees about when this is, some think we are already living in the Millennial Kingdom, others think it's just symbolic, etc.) which is 1,000 years in length (again people debate whether this is literal or not) and then after a final skirmish with Satan who is released for a short time resulting in his defeat, the final Great White Throne judgment ensues, ushering in the Eternal Kingdom. So yes I agree that in the Eternal Kingdom (after the Millenial Kingdom and final judgment) there is no distinction between believers. Nothing works-based at all.

Our salvation and eternal standing before God are based entirely on grace, not works. 100% percent agreement with this. We cannot earn our salvation, it is through grace alone.

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The concept of a literal 1,000-year earthly reign of Christ is debatable. Many Christians interpret Revelation 20 symbolically, not as a literal timeline.

Yes I realise this, which is why again it's not a hill I would die on, but as I'm a Dispensationalist I favour the literal interpretation. I expect as I study and learn further that my views may or will shift. As I said elsewhere, I'm OK with others' beliefs on the end times, and certainly wouldn't want to force my views on anyone, as no-one has the definitive answer! God told Daniel (12:9) "He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end."

Plus I don't think it's right to go down the 'I'm right and you're wrong' route because that's divisive and the Enemy loves to divide people. Basically we agree on the central tenets of the faith and we are all looking to the return of Jesus however that comes about, keeping the commandments Jesus gave us, and spreading the gospel. That's what really matters.

Apologies for any typos, misspellings and general lack of sense!

Edit: Reading over this I can see tiredness got me, there's a lot more to be said re the rewards area but honestly I'm too tired to go into it further. I can recommend an excellent book, 'The Footsteps of the Messiah' by Arnold Fruchtenbaum, a Messianic Jew. He outlines all the OT prophecies and analyses in detail the possible events to come and some timings, and arguments for and against various views.

@AlteredStater I'm not a Dispensationalist and I'm not planning to get into the detail of this discussion. But I just wanted to say how much I appreciate the honesty and generosity of your last post.

It brings to mind Ephesians 4:3, that we should make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.

God bless you.

Awww thank you for saying that! I really appreciate it. ❤

God bless you too.

@AlteredStater I wasn’t intending to engage in an “I’m right, you’re wrong” discussion but simply to share an alternative perspective. As a Preterist, I interpret biblical prophecies, particularly those in the Book of Revelation and other apocalyptic texts, as events that have already occurred, primarily in the first century AD. This perspective views those prophecies as being fulfilled in historical events, such as the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, rather than as future occurrences. These do have important lessons for us, but It seems we’re simply viewing the Bible through different lenses. May our Lord bless and keep you until His Coming.

Oh no I didn't mean you were trying to! I meant in general. So sorry if you got that impression.

Ah OK Preterism, no that's fine, I get it! Thanks for the discussion, appreciate it. 😊

☝ This

As above.
We have a cleaner who has VERY clear ideas about Christianity. He's a very black and white kind of person with no boundaries and is absolutely certain that his brand of Christianity is the right one.
Tbf, if he wasn't such a good (and cheap) cleaner I would get rid of him. As it is, I avoid him.
It makes me very glad that we don't live in a theocracy.

That sounds like some of the squabbles in the new testament where people fell out of a point of doctrine. It's hard to continue if someone won't let their particular perspective on a theological point drop for the sake of unity.

Oh, for goodness sake AlteredStater and I were having a discussion which ended amicably.

Huh?
I.thought @ChristmasStars was referring to the awkward cleaner and similar people in the NT- I really didn't read any kind of discussion between Pilgrim and Altered into this?

That’s how I took it too.

edited to add:
I thought the discussion between Pilgrim and Altered was very good natured. 👍xx

Sorry ChristmassStars, I misunderstood your message

And me!

Everyone is happy. No one is falling out. Disagreeing about technical details that I can no longer invest in, personally.

I used to wrestle with doctrine. Now I'm
more of a ‘everyone groping towards the truth, with variable success’ kind of a woman.

When the truth is of the complexity of the divine, we will only ever grasp partial truths.

A group of blind men heard that a strange animal, called an elephant, had been brought to the town, but none of them were aware of its shape and form. Out of curiosity, they said: "We must inspect and know it by touch, of which we are capable". So, they sought it out, and when they found it they groped about it. The first person, whose hand landed on the trunk, said, "This being is like a thick snake". For another one whose hand reached its ear, it seemed like a kind of fan. As for another person, whose hand was upon its leg, said, the elephant is a pillar like a tree-trunk. The blind man who placed his hand upon its side said the elephant, "is a wall". Another who felt its tail, described it as a rope. The last felt its tusk, stating the elephant is that which is hard, smooth and like a spear.

Thank you. I really wasn't making a point about you both and your conversation. It's great to have those discussions and still keep the peace.

Thank you! Lovely example! There's a reason my name's Pilgrim in Progress, I'm still learning and AlteredStater has given me food for thought.

I was talking to someone recently about the need for variety in the spiritual diet. I’ve been blessed by exposure to a lot of different churchmanship and spirituality. All have something to offer. All challenge me in different ways. All are worthy of respect.

I have changed and respond now to things that left me cold ten years ago. I was not ‘immature’ then and more mature now. I am not right now and wrong then.

The only time I reserve my respect is when someone is judgemental of others or claims they are right and others are wrong. If the fruit of the tree is not loving, I doubt that tree.

SensibleSigma that's a beautiful ( and utterly correct in my book) sentiment and so well put.
Thank you.

One thing I've learned from having chronic ill health is that there's no one treatment that fits all. We are all very different. Similarly with faith, every person is on their own journey and we are all at different stages. I am learning a lot by listening to other people's perspectives.

What a fantastic analogy.

“For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13‬:‭12‬ ‭NIV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/111/1co.13.12.NIV

We can’t know. Don’t know.