To think that everyone who told those with preschool children in 2020/21 to get a puddlesuit and that lockdown wasn’t that bad needs to read this

[manysummersago]

BBC link

Reading the above has made me feel so angry and sad at what was done to the babies and toddlers of this country, and I can’t believe that we let it happen, quite honestly.

Additionally, I'm not sure how school closures within a wider lock down affected pre-schoolers, although I do know that it's nursery and teaching staff who are highlighting concerns about these children's development.

Glad to see we’re keeping up the valuable MN tradition of being unable to talk about covid impacts to babies/toddlers, their nurseries and their families, without making it a huge row about teachers of older kids.

@Swayingpalmtrees

What a joke. Teaching unions are pretty toothless

If that is your idea of toothless, then I hate to imagine what you think they could do to the lives of our children with teeth!

The Unions actively worked against the needs of children, they put every obstacle possible in front of the department of Education, calling for heads to ignore the instructions to reopen. They threw the kitchen sink at it, or have you conveniently forgotten what actually happened. Every teacher that pays for these thugs to ruin our children's lives are supporting the damage to children.

What Unions do children have to speak up for them? You say the unions are there to protect the interests of the teachers, what an indulgence when we think the most vulnerable in society had no protection at all, and at the mercy of those militants. If it had not been for the group us4them the schools would still be closed!! I am sure this latest spike would have had the unions slamming the doors shut in no time.

We need a major overhaul in this country, and teachers should have the same legal status as fire service etc, so that we do not reach this point of crisis ever again.

That’s three times you’ve repeated the same claim. It’s total bollocks. Truth twisting at its very finest. Grow up.

Swaying - that’s a ridiculous argument, of course children are represented- by their parents who vote in elections. Many mps and other decision makers are parents too.

We had no choice but to shut schools given what we knew, if we hadn’t many would have shut anyway with staff absences. In England teachers have been able to take their masks off if they were socially distanced, ie talking from the front since after the first lockdown.

There was a stark difference in what different schools expected though - I had to teach a full online timetable from 3 days after the start of lockdown 1. I’ve never worked so hard. DD in y7 had almost nothing to do - a few worksheets set for the whole year group (not by their particular teacher) and nothing live. F* knows what those teachers were doing. Those differences were very much due to decisions made by headteachers. Private schools generally delivered full online lessons - and btw teachers in independent schools are in the same unions as state schools.

I do not believe that the children who are most behind of those who were wfh, it’s much more likely they were those who were already vulnerable and already had disengaged parents and chaotic lives, sadly there are many children in that category.

@GoldenOmber

Glad to see we’re keeping up the valuable MN tradition of being unable to talk about covid impacts to babies/toddlers, their nurseries and their families, without making it a huge row about teachers of older kids.

Yes, this, and it gets so wearing.

Yet people go on about school closures and teens when it suits their argument and backs it up, when it doesn't they complain. How tedious. Everyone was affected by lockdown, those more adversely affected are by no coincidence those in groups that have had support, funding, facilities periodically decorated over the years. Whilst I agree lockdown was shite (albeit still not sure what this wondrous alternative is), let's not direct so much ire towards lockdown and blame it for everything when the fundamental issues were bubbling away long before and continue to do so now.

But it is an essential part of the discussion. What could we have done? To provide what YOU wanted, EDUCATORS had to be put at risk - and my goodness, we have taken it for the team. Yes, children have been disrupted and their lives made more complex but they are still alive and over time, will overcome these difficulties. Dead is dead and depending on your religious beliefs, there’s no coming back. Things need to be addressed in schools right now rather than carping back to the fact that nurseries closed in 2020. Deal with today’s issues as they will affect your children more significantly.

EDUCATORS had to be put at risk - and my goodness, we have taken it for the team.

Yes yes. You are very important. Gosh you are important. We could not manage without you. Go and pour yourself a huge glass of wine and give yourself a massive pat on the back. And then perhaps let a conversation about lockdown impact on babies/toddlers be about babies/toddlers, rather than on your personal risk threshold in your personal job with older kids?

I remember you all over threads about nursery closures in the winter lockdown, insisting that every conversation about wtf young children working parents were meant to do should be about risks to teachers first and foremost. I do think risk to teachers is important, myself. But it is not the most important thing anywhere ever to everyone, to the point where every single conversation about lockdown impact kids of any age needs to actually be about that instead.

And again: if you think the impact to young kids was terrible but worth it, then that’s a rational position to hold, but at least have the courage of your convictions and hold it. Rather than this “well it was worth the bad effects on young kids, but actually it wasn’t that bad and anyway parents are relying on nurseries to parent and anyway there’s no point talking about it now and anyway the kids aren’t dead so they’ll be fine. Anyway, back to me!” thing.

If you are comfortable saying “these bad impacts were worth it”, then fine, just own that.

@GoldenOmber educators are important because they are the ones who are mainly picking up the pieces on the impact of the pandemic on our children and were also doing so during the pandemic. Many other services were really noticeable by their absence

[quote toomuchlaundry]@GoldenOmber educators are important because they are the ones who are mainly picking up the pieces on the impact of the pandemic on our children and were also doing so during the pandemic. Many other services were really noticeable by their absence[/quote]
Yes! Very important! Very very very important. Go and pour yourselves ten glasses of wine, teachers and nursery nurses and all educational staff. Well deserved.

But perhaps they are not quite so important that a thread about the impact on toddlers needs to be about the impact on teachers instead?

Oh, I do think I’m important but I’m cutting back on alcohol after the vast amounts of gin I was swigging over the last two years (whilst sunbathing in the garden). However, you also think I’m important (or my job is important) - as that’s what this whole thread is about: the impact of closures on children. Therefore, educators are important as we keep the places of educating going. And yes, I fully supported keeping my nursery colleagues safe. I would have been happy with priority vaccines in January 2021 but as that wasn’t forthcoming, the safest option was to keep adults away from crowded places like schools and nurseries. I stand by it completely. Children WILL catch up. Dead people don’t return from the dead.

I remember a lot of Us4Them names too 🙂. I can only think they are getting anxious about schools and nurseries closing again, given the number of classes being sent home. You don’t need to worry, they will stay open. The issue which should be a priority is now to make it quality provision.

Teachers were not at significantly increased risk compared to the general population. Many professions were at higher risk.

In any case, there are many measures which could have been taken to limit the damage to young children which have nothing to do with teachers. Indeed, given the focus of the report in question is on very young children who were not at school during lockdown, I'm not really sure that teachers are hugely relevant to the thread.

For example, the government could have kept playgrounds open, allowed and supported outdoor parental support groups, allowed outdoor sports and playgroups and permitted parents to enter into informal childcare bubbles with other households so they could 'swap' childcare.

None of these have anything to do with teachers.

Totally agree golden Well said. It was echo chamber on here for months and it was the most annoying thing. The same posters now pretend they didn't fight tooth and nail to close the nurseries and schools, and deflect their positions to funding, policy, parents or other excuses now. Probably embarrassed to be called out I expect.

Our toddlers especially deserved more, and the smallest in our society were severely let down by the very people that are supposed to care, educate and inspire them.

There were some incredible teachers that stood out, and then there were the others doing the absolute bare minimum. They know who they are and they have to live with the knowledge and their conscience.

@GoldenOmber
If you read the thread, I have said that in my first post.

The closures were worth it to save lives as children will catch up over the next twenty years of education. No teachers=no education. It’s what’s happening now as classes are combined and year groups are being sent home. I am fully vaccinated now so I feel as safe as I will at work but your are incredibly stupid if you think it’s all fine educationally.

@Swayingpalmtrees

Totally agree golden Well said. It was echo chamber on here for months and it was the most annoying thing. The same posters now pretend they didn't fight tooth and nail to close the nurseries and schools, and deflect their positions to funding, policy, parents or other excuses now. Probably embarrassed to be called out I expect.

Our toddlers especially deserved more, and the smallest in our society were severely let down by the very people that are supposed to care, educate and inspire them.

There were some incredible teachers that stood out, and then there were the others doing the absolute bare minimum. They know who they are and they have to live with the knowledge and their conscience.

I would say the same about the Us4Them posters - complete echo chamber. They can see what a mess schools and nurseries are in right now and are desperately trying to prove they were right. Those in the mess can see what their ‘no mitigation’ policy has and continues to do to the children. As I said, do t panic, there won’t be closures but you will continue to find disrupted education if you don’t deal with the current situation.

For example, the government could have kept playgrounds open, allowed and supported outdoor parental support groups, allowed outdoor sports and playgroups and permitted parents to enter into informal childcare bubbles with other households so they could 'swap' childcare.

Agreed with this. And I think underlying it should have been an acknowledgement that young children actually do need to see the world around them, and will be impacted if they’re shut up at home with only parents to interact with ever. When governments didn’t value that it was easy to keep playgrounds closed, have ‘one adult only unless you really can’t manage’ rules for shops, because what’s the harm in just staying at home and Staying Safe, hey? Well: this is the harm.

[quote BustopherPonsonbyJones]@GoldenOmber
If you read the thread, I have said that in my first post.

The closures were worth it to save lives as children will catch up over the next twenty years of education. No teachers=no education. It’s what’s happening now as classes are combined and year groups are being sent home. I am fully vaccinated now so I feel as safe as I will at work but your are incredibly stupid if you think it’s all fine educationally.[/quote]
No, you need to acknowledge that the harms of the closures were worth it. Not say the closures were worth it because they weren’t that harmful, and the harms were in fact due to, in your words, “a lack of parental involvement and interaction with their children and perhaps an over reliance on nurseries to ‘parent’.”

@Goldbar

Teachers were not at significantly increased risk compared to the general population. Many professions were at higher risk.

In any case, there are many measures which could have been taken to limit the damage to young children which have nothing to do with teachers. Indeed, given the focus of the report in question is on very young children who were not at school during lockdown, I'm not really sure that teachers are hugely relevant to the thread.

For example, the government could have kept playgrounds open, allowed and supported outdoor parental support groups, allowed outdoor sports and playgroups and permitted parents to enter into informal childcare bubbles with other households so they could 'swap' childcare.

None of these have anything to do with teachers.

Completely agree about the playgrounds and other measures as they don’t impact on others and put them in danger.

I think current research has shown teachers were (and are )more at risk. I will try to share a link later.

@GoldenOmber
I think the harms of the closure were worth it to save lives. I would do it again in the same situation.
Can I be any clearer?

[quote BustopherPonsonbyJones]@GoldenOmber
I think the harms of the closure were worth it to save lives. I would do it again in the same situation.
Can I be any clearer?[/quote]
Possibly by not trying to find ways to attribute said harms to lazy parents, rather than the actual closures?

Surely this thread is here because it was in the news - not due to any anxiety over closure.

I thought there’d be damage at the time, and now it’s coming out it’s hard to refute.

We’ve been very lucky this term pretty much.

golden I wonder if bustopher would think it was worth it if their child had died, was in hospital being fed through a tube at 12 years old with anorexia or had any skin in the game at all.

It was clearly NOT worth it, and much of the older and most vulnerable said so at the time. Children took the hit for the team, NOT teachers!

Just to be clear, there is zero chance of anywhere locking down so no one is talking about that.

We are feeling rightly aggrieved and angry that our children have suffered so much and it was pointless. Completely pointless. We could have achieved the same outcome with the schools remaining open.

So how did you imagine schools/nurseries would stay fully open during lockdowns? With case rates so high and no vaccines?