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Tooth decay in my 5 and 7 year old

93 replies

Lucky2badad · 03/04/2018 19:01

Hi everyone,
So this is my first post ever!
I desperately need some advice as I'm at a loss on what to do next.
My 5 year old recently had 8 teeth pulled out owing to tooth decay. My 7 year old now also has tooth decay on one of his back teeth, I took him in on Thursday just gone to have it sorted.
Unfortunately my 5 year old is now showing signs of further tooth decay in one of his 6 remaining teeth. This will more than likely leave him without the ability to chew his food.
They live with their mum who seems very reluctant to take immediate action when these problems have arisen. I know their grandma still gives them cans of coke, pick and mix and biscuits. She sees them at least twice a week.
From the very start of all of this I have had to take time off work on multiple occasions to take either one of them to the dentist and I live and work 2 hours from them, whilst their mum lives 5 minutes from the dentist.
So, owing to the most recent issue I now find myself questioning what to do next.
Please has anyone any advice or even been in this situation themselves?
Thank you so much.

OP posts:
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SundayGirls · 05/04/2018 16:19

zzzz you don’t have to be a Dentist to know that the best way to avoid fillings and extractions is to properly clean teeth twice a day and avoid fizzy drinks and too much sugar. You seem determined to scoff at taking children’s dental health seriously, I do, we have different opinions. Thanks.

mammmamia · 05/04/2018 16:33

It’s absolutely NOT normal to have that level of decay or fillings on a 5-7 year old. I have no idea who is perpetuating this kind of crap.

zzzzz · 05/04/2018 16:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Lucky2badad · 05/04/2018 17:07

Thank you Sunday girl.
At the end of the day I want my children to have the best care, education, start in life etc.....as any parent would, but I'm afraid that they aren't necessarily getting that. Don't get me wrong I know grandparents wants to spoil their grandchildren and sometimes even parents find it hard to say no. I've done it, my mums done it, but there's a line. That line was crossed some time ago now and it continues.
My 5 year old was only having 1 tooth filled but it seemed to spread like wild fire. I know that there are multiple causes I've done my research, but in this case I have to told that it is diet. The diet hasn't changed enough as is evident now in my 7 year old and again in my 5 year old.
I have arranged to have a chat with my ex and we will try to resolve it, but my fear is nothing will change again.

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 05/04/2018 20:12

SundayGirl - yes indeed, 'on the face of it' there is concern.

But I do not think that is the full story here. I think the dental problems are a pretext for a campaign of control and threats against the ex wife.

With the best will in the world, some people have weak enamel and no amount of healthy eating, brushing and flossing will change that.

Pammywhammy's post reminds me of something I forgot to mention about my Dsis who had to have her jaw broken at a dental appointment (an element of treatment that was not anticipated by my mum). Dsis took Ventolin from an early age for asthma and it discoloured her teeth. They developed a grey cast. Nothing could be done about this until her adult teeth grew in and eventually she had them whitened a bit.
Medicines can affect dental health and not just in cosmetic ways.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8112603.stm
Filling rotten baby teeth may be an unnecessary trial for children to endure, experts say.

Some 40% of five-year-olds in the UK have tooth decay and at least one in 10 of these is treated with fillings.

But anecdotal evidence from 50 dentists gathered by Manchester University researchers suggests filling baby teeth may not offer significant benefits.

Advisers to the NHS are now beginning a study on treatment options to provide dentists with clear guidelines.

Experts already know there is wide variation in care which means that a young child with signs of tooth decay could have no treatment, a filling or the tooth pulled out depending on which dentist they attend.

Without any clear guidelines, dentists currently have to rely on their experience and judgement to decide whether or not to intervene.

If the child is in severe pain and having sleepless nights, and the parent is confident that their child will cope with and benefit from the treatment, then the choice may be clear.

But when the decay is not causing symptoms, it can be difficult to decide what is in the child's best interests given that their tooth will ultimately fall out by the time they are 11 anyway.

Indeed, anecdotal evidence gathered from the case notes of 50 dentists suggests filling baby teeth may achieve nothing but expose children to the discomfort of an injection and the sound of the drill.

Fillings or extractions are really up to the individual dentist, and as the dentists have only your word to go on as to diet, with their own observations as to brushing and flossing, they really could not say credibly or categorically that in this specific case the diet of the children caused the tooth decay. They could only offer an opinion in general terms as to diet, whereas they can offer an opinion based on observation when it comes to dental hygiene, based partly on presence or absence of early gingivitis as well as other signs. Plenty of children miss spots all the time when they brush, as do plenty of adults. Tooth decay is actually the most common disease in young children.

This is not neglect. 40% of children have tooth decay. Perhaps you believe that the parents of those 40% should have their children taken from them in order to give them the best care, education, start in life etc Hmm

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3698078/
FiCTION trial ongoing as of 2013 - as there is no compelling evidence of effectiveness of any of three treatment approaches to treatment of caries in pediatric dentistry - bonding/capping, filling, or extraction. What this means in practice is that the opinion of one dentist as to best treatment options will be contradicted by another

You keep on ignoring the question of whether it was you or your ex wife who took the initiative to have the bonding done.

And your theory that the children must rinse their teeth after brushing is contradicted by advice from both my own and my children's dentists as well as advice from the NHS.

mathanxiety · 05/04/2018 20:14

The average number of rotten teeth in 5 year olds whose teeth are decaying is 4-5. This means some children will have more and some will have less.

mrcharlie · 05/04/2018 20:39

I'm speechless.
My son now 10 was very ill when he was a baby, the infection affected his teeth meaning the enamel never formed. the dentist crowned his back teeth and warned us never to give him the things you've mentioned, i.e pop, pick n mix etc etc.

He went for a check up last week and all is fine. He's never had a taste for bad stuff, simply because he;s never had any. We are incredibly strict and adhere to the advice the dentist gives.

I feel so sorry for the trauma your children have been put through.

Lucky2badad · 05/04/2018 21:01

Mathanxiety, she's my ex partner, not wife. And it was my dentist that started the fluoride.
I appreciate your input and thank you for the links. I feel you may have had some experience that may have left you bitter?
As mentioned we have arranged to talk about the issue, if she were scared of me or found me an intimidating kind of person, I wouldn't be allowed to tuck them in when I drop them off, we wouldn't be meeting to talk about it, near the kids or even near the house. Should I go on?
Your input has been very enlightening as to what mumsnet can offer.

OP posts:
zzzzz · 05/04/2018 21:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mathanxiety · 05/04/2018 21:47

Are you always so snippy and hostile with people who disagree with you?

You have threatened your ex partner with taking the children away from her to live with you so they can experience the best start that life can offer Hmm. Or better than you feel this woman can give anyway. She knows you have those three letters to show to a judge.

Of course she won't do anything to upset you, including letting you into her home to tuck the children into bed.

This, btw, is an example of a lack of healthy boundaries on your part.

I come across people like you and agendas like yours in my professional capacity. I am not bitter, just endlessly fascinated at how some individuals believe they are the first to try certain stunts, and that anyone who sees cases like yours day in and day out would buy your 'concern' schtick.

Lucky2badad · 05/04/2018 22:50

I am willing to take on everyone's opinion, hence the reason I put this post up. But as you rightfully point out there are a number of ways you can put your opinion forward.
I have concerns regarding my children's health and was looking for some advice, not a hard time.

OP posts:
Lucky2badad · 05/04/2018 23:38

Also both dentists asked for weekly food charts so they knew what the boys had eaten and drunk. That's one way they concluded it was diet related.

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 06/04/2018 05:19

How could you have produced food charts for children you do not see apart from your visitation time?

Lucky2badad · 06/04/2018 08:30

We were both asked to.

OP posts:
ILikeMyChickenFried · 06/04/2018 10:12

Math stop being so flipping hostile, even if the OP does have some grand plan to create a "file" so help him get custody, none of your ranting is going to help

differentnameforthis · 06/04/2018 10:25

How do you know what their diet is like when they are with mum? They are 5 and 7, I am assuming they talk and tell dad? Or is this one of those "you can't believe what kids say" things...

But I do not think that is the full story here. I think the dental problems are a pretext for a campaign of control and threats against the ex wife. Wow, you really are determined to make this guy the bad guy! No wonder MN gets the rep as man hating.

It’s fine just to say “it’s not like that” To be fair, math has been confrontational throughout the thread. Op is probably sick of it.

Lucky2badad I'd ignore math to be honest. She is being particularly goady and it isn't the first time. You can bet your last pound that she would have found something to have a go at you for.

mammmamia · 06/04/2018 10:26

Wow - math Hmm

mathanxiety · 06/04/2018 19:48

Differentname - it would be most unlikely for a 5 or 7 year old to tell Dad what they had eaten unless he had asked. It would be most unlikely they would remember either, but that's another story.

If he had asked them, that would be a problem. Asking questions of children as to details of life with Mum, or with Dad if it is the other way round, is extremely unhealthy for the parent, and very bad for the children.

However, it seems both parents were asked to provide a weekly list.

This dripfeed seems most unlikely too. As pointed out in a link I posted, tooth decay is the most common childhood disease in the UK, and it would be bizarre for a dentist to request a food list from parents to verify that diet might contribute to decay.

It's not ok to threaten the parent if your children with taking them away unless the parent does things your way.

Deux · 06/04/2018 20:13

Moving forward OP, one thing you can do for your eldest is to get fissure sealants done on the adult molars as soon as they have erupted. It's not a substitute for good oral hygiene but will help.

Also plaque disclosing tablets once or twice a week so they can see the bits they are missing. Also there is an alcohol free mouthwash called Dentyl that is bicolour and you shake the bottle to mix the 2 phases together then swill. Any plaque spat out will show as stained particles. It’s quite good to do it before and after brushing to see the difference.

Certainly amongst the people I know that level of decay would be unheard of and in my view is far from normal and a sign of neglect or parental disengagement. Of my DDs friends most have no fillings and only one has a filling.

Out of interest, did your DC eat lots of dried fruit like raisins in the toddler years? It's one of the worst things for dental health as tiny pieces get stuck to teeth and between teeth. My DD's class did a science experiment where they soaked teeth in a glass of milk, orange juice and in coke. The teeth disintegrated in the coke.

mathanxiety · 06/04/2018 20:20

There are wide disparities among regions and even from one LA to another when it comes to tooth decay. To some extent the different rates are die to income/ poverty and to some extent water quality has a bearing. It is very likely that some people will not see much of it while some will see a lot.

mathanxiety · 06/04/2018 20:30

Posted too soon...

Because tooth decay is so prevalent it can't be taken on its own as a sign of neglect or parental disengagement. There would have to be a wide range of other signs such as persistently dirty hair, body or clothing, hunger, consistently inappropriate clothing or footwear for weather, living conditions sub par, failure to treat chronic illness like asthma, chronic pinworms or headline being ignored, no interest at all shown in children's school progress or behaviour.

mathanxiety · 06/04/2018 20:31
  • headlice
Lucky2badad · 06/04/2018 22:23

Hi deux, at the last visit I spoke with the boys dentist about sealant and she will be doing that once their adult teeth come through. Thank you for the suggestion though.
My ex partner and I split up 4 years ago now so I was only there until my now 5 year old was 1 and my eldest was 3. They had a very good diet when we were together, yes they both had raisans but certainly not in excess. We had lots of vegetables and yes fruit, but quite a bit of cheese to neutralise the acid. We all had a very balanced diet.
I would cook most of the time so made sure it was all fresh, no pre made sauces or anything out of a packet with hi sugar and salt contents. I've always enjoyed cooking as I love eating good food.

Math as I have mentioned there are other concerns, but this is the straw that broken the camels back as it were.
By no means have I made any threats, she is still their mum. I am from a broken family and remember the hate and anger, I certainly wouldn't put my own children through that! Hence the reason I would much rather it was sorted peacefully first.
I would never quiz my children either! They are indeed able to talk for themselves, remember what they have eaten and also tell me the truth. For example when I picked them up last from their grandmas they told me there and then that grandma had been naughty and given them coke. Grandmas response was 'yeah but that's the last one'! So no denying it. I didn't say anything then as it wouldn't be fair to create a scene in front of the children.
My boys know what's right and wrong, my eldest is getting there but my youngest sadly isn't quite there. But feel to put that on them isn't overly fair either, as adults it should be our responsibility to make sure they have the correct diet.

OP posts:
Lucky2badad · 06/04/2018 22:31

Ilikemychickenfried, differentnameforthis, mammmamia, thank you. I'm used to it. dads are all to often singled out, and in many cases understandably, but math, there are still fathers out here that really do care and want to do the right thing in the best and most peaceful way possible for their children.

OP posts:
differentnameforthis · 07/04/2018 02:06

it would be most unlikely for a 5 or 7 year old to tell Dad what they had eaten unless he had asked. It would be most unlikely they would remember either, but that's another story. You make lots of assumptions. It isn't most unlikely that a child of 5-7 would remember. You are just unwilling to see that the father can be in the right.