GP not being very helpful regarding Circumcision

[Debster7808]

I went to see the GP recently at the first check-up after DS2 was born, and I said that because DS1 was circumcised (-he was born in US, where it kind of gets done as a routine just after boys are born-), we wanted to get DS2 done as well, while he's still a newborn. I was really surprised when the GP tried to talk me out of getting it done, which means that I'm a bit lost as to where next to turn to get this done. I can understand that circumcision isn't available on the NHS, which is fine, but if I want to go private, don't I need a GP referral? Should I just seek a second GP's opinion?
Anyone have any experience of getting their boys circumcised in a culture that generally doesn't do it?

It has nothing to do with the environment. They cry because it HURTS!

differentname - not sure if your last post was directed at me (I assume not) but in case it was:

1. I circumcised my children for religious reasons, not because it 'looked nice'
2. when I was referring to abortion, I was referring to late abortions, where it is proven (can't remember what week exactly) that the baby can feel pain
3. re smacking etc. - you are correct, I do not, because I am not into inflicting unnecessary pain.

as I said in my earlier post though, there did not appear to be very much pain at all involved in my dcs' circumcisions (obviously I cannot speak for others, and cannot speak even for my dcs as they could not tell me at the time!) - but from what I witnessed as a mother.

why didn't mine or my friends' boys cry then?

to be honest, I can't remember it in exact detail but I do remember the great feeling of relief that it didn't really seem to bother them much - again, like an injection sometimes, where the mother is nervous but the baby doesn't seem to notice for longer than a few seconds. of course, each child (and parent) is different so I don't speak for all.

fwiw, if I wasn't Jewish I wouldn't dream of circumcising my boys and would be quite horrified at the thought. But I am, and I have, and I'm just telling you my experiences, and those others that I have witnessed.

newyearbaby - what are the implications among your religous community and in your belief system if your son isn't circumsised?

I really don't buy understand the 'for religous reasons' argument.

I'm not sure as never thought about it but it would have serious implications - e.g. potentially not being viewed as Jewish, which has a knock-on effect for marriage, future children and generations, and various other implications.

tbh, even if a family did not feel in the slightest bit religious, they would have to be pretty removed not to have their boys circumcised.

(I may be talking rubbish here - but it's a semi-educated guess)

why didn't mine or my friends' boys cry then

Shock.

I am coming at you, with a scalpel. I am going to hold you down & I am going to cut your labial lips. You have no say in the matter. It is going to happen. Would you just lie there & let me get on with it, with smile on your face? No, you would probably go into shock, unable to move, scream, cry because that is how your body protects itself. It shuts down.

But if it helps you to believe that your sons didn't cry, because it wasn't painful, I'll allow you to believe that OP. Because at the end of the day, YOU need to believe that, I get it! I really do. If I wanted to pour boiling hot water over my child, for looks, I'd probably tell myself that it didn't hurt too!

I use the boiling water scenario here as my nephew at 2 was badly scolded by dipping is arms in a bath full of hot water. My sister always put hot in first & then cooled it off. She wondered off downstairs leaving her toddler roaming around upstairs, under the care of his 6yr old sister (I shit you not). He got a toilet step (the ones toddlers use to reach the toilet) put it by the bath & plunged his arms in.

His 5yr old sister SAW (didn't hear, this is vital) what happened & pulled him out. She didn't hear it as he didn't make a sound. (He was also rendered mute for a few months afterwards). She didn't call for my sister (this too is vital). My sister casually strolled back upstairs to find her daughter holding her brother in the bathroom, with tears running down her face. At first, my sister thought her daughter had pushed/dipped him in.

On being blue lighted to hospital with her son & daughter, the paramedics told her (when she asked why neither screamed out) that her son was in so much pain his body shut down in shock & his sister, on seeing his traumatised state, shut down too. He is scarred badly. And he was in a lot pain afterwards. He would cry silent tears & it was the most heartbreaking thing I have ever seen. His sister was traumatised for a while too, it took my sister a good while to come to terms with the fact that it was her fault, preferring to blame her daughter. Even tho she (the daughter) had very articulately told the doctors what happened. Just because my sister didn't want to believe her stupidity caused my nephew such an immense amount of pain that his body shut down.

So you tell me that no screaming = no pain! Because you are wrong!!!!!!

I'm not sure as never thought about it but it would have serious implications

So you had him cut for reasons that you admit, you have no idea about? That you haven't thought about?

that said, people have, in various times in history (I think, but again, I might be wrong here) not circumcised their sons if it would have serious implications on their life - and by that I mean e.g. Russian pogroms or Nazi Germany - so there are overriding factors.
Nothing in the religion should be endangering life - so in those times when it would endanger life, it would be perfectly legitimate not to do it.

Of course also there are Jews that don't want to do it - and that's fine - but as I said above, it would have other religious implications.

Thanks for answering NewYear - could get into a whole new discussion about your reply but this thread isn't really the place for it . . .

ok, I'm bowing out now. I have contributed what I feel is necessary but I do find this thread quite shocking (I know, that's the intention, I get it) - but I don't really want to be a part of it any longer. Just didn't want this thread to be lacking from a different pov.

I wasn't Jewish I wouldn't dream of circumcising my boys and would be quite horrified at the thought. But I am, and I have

Sorry, but I find that rather disturbing. You would be (read are) horrified at the thought of circumcising your sons. As a mother, you couldn't do it. But you did it because you are Jewish. I can't reconcile that!

as a final thought, differentname - I think these are quite different situations.
Also, just wondering why you have namechanged for this?

You are more afraid of future serious implications, than you are strong enough to make a stand & say NO I won't do it.

You were a slave to your religion, more than you were a mother when you had your sons cut.

ahhgg - I really am leaving this soon! just to clarify - I would be horrified obviously coming at it from a different angle - ie one of ignorance and inexperience in these matters. As it happens, because I am Jewish, I have had different experiences to those I might have had/ not had because I wasn't Jewish. Do you understand the difference? It's not a religious difference but an experiential one.

I haven't name changed. Search me. differentnameforthis "this" being mumsnet. I have had this name for over a yr now.

No I don't understand. I cannot reconcile that your need to cut because you are Jewish was stronger than your need to protect from harm because you are a mother.

I have found posts dating back to August 2010 with this name. But I know that I had it longer, because I changed it to post about something v personal at the beginning of 2010.

sorry - tired - didn't check.
what I am saying is that yes, being Jewish and all that entails is very important to me, but also that I had been to many brises before having my own dcs and did not find cause for concern. Of course I was a little nervous (it would be unnatural not to be) - just as you are nervous before the heel prick test etc. but just because you have natural maternal instincts to protect your child does not mean that they are going to be harmed in any way more than e.g. the heel prick test. I'm pretty sure that I didn't sense shock or numbing of pain in that sense - more the minor discomfort of the heel prick (again, of course I may be wrong) but I do speak as a mother and all that entails regarding sensing whatever you can of your newborn (not that it's relevant, but I breastfed, so-slept etc., so I wouldn't class myself as distant or uncaring).

co-slept

nailak, in law in this country the foetus is not separate from the mother until a certain amount of time has gone by. This I think, encompasses the time, where if the foetus were to spontaneously abort, it would be non-viable. as a result, up until that time, a foetus is considered to be part of the woman and not a separate entity.

Pro-lifers do not agree with this, but it is, nevertheless, the law, and for most people a reasonable one.

In this case, there is no doubt whatsoever that the baby is a separate entity from the mother, and is most definitely viable. He is, however, unable to speak for himself or make an informed decision - until he screams or goes into shock when the operation is done, at which point it is too late, no matter how much he dislikes it.

I think that is the difference.

Yes, the situations are different, the reason I posted was to answer your question, that of why your sons didn't cry etc. The outcome is the same. Shock = silence.

I told you what no surgeon will, we all have. Of course they will say it is pain-free, because you wouldn't PAY them for hurting your son.

I didn't say you were distant & uncaring. And I wasn't nervous of the heel prick & I am not nervous of my girls having their vax, because it is what it best for them. It is a means to an end. Circumcision is not, it is a choice that many men don't even get to make & I wonder how many do actually resent that! I know I would.

"Each to their own. I'm not attempting to convert anyone else. But my DH likes being circumcised and believes that our sons are better off circumcised. Given that DS1 coped with having it done amazingly well, (barely a whimper), I am very happy getting DS2 done as well, in the belief that I am doing something positive for him."

I agree with you Debster7808. It is so obviously cleaner and healthier without a foreskin to trap and nurture harmful bacteria. My DH is happily circumcised and I appreciated it enough to have our boys done soon after birth. If you Google 'circumcision clinic' you will find there are quite a few places privately offering this service using local anaesthetic and at an affordable fee. Far more boys are being circumcised these days and not all of them for religious faith reasons. Good luck!