New Home for the Chalet School

[Vintagejazz]

Welome everyone. Dormy lists on the board as usual and I know you are all hoping like mad that you are all not in the same dormitory as Mary Lou. But only some of you can be the un lucky ones and the rest of us will have to make do with each other.

Oh, and the good news is that Joey has sabotaged discovered something wrong with the roof on her house and believe it or not, the only property available to rent is right next door to the school.

Shit Hurrah, lucky us.

Got to go. Matey wants me for unpacking.

It wasn't that long ago that I attended Churches which used Mary Wesley (mother of John) as an example of a good Christian mother (whipping them from a young age, and covering her head with her apron to pray). They didn't mention that her and her husband had a theological disagreement and didn't speak for 20 or so years.

And in that kind of class it was seen to be wrong to mollycoddle your sons and keep them at home.

I think even EDB realised the quads story would have been insane.

Yes agree about the child rearing. It was more spare the rod and spoil the child.

When my dm was evacuated from the town to the village in Wales she was living with a hell fire welsh baptist.

His idea was that to please Jesus she needed to give up a special toy to another poor child to show true generosity.

She had to give her teddy bear.

I really really hope that bastard rots. But there you go. They were hard in those days.

I think the interesting thing here is that EBD is taking quite a contradictory position - on the one hand Jo's boys are sent off to school in a foreign country and then at times palmed off onto Winnie Embury during their holidays so she can go gallivanting round acquiring other children, and it's treated as totally normal for a parent to punish a child by ignoring them for significant lengths of time; but on the other, she clearly also has an approving vision of Jo as a more (modern?) loving mother, who cuddles and cossets and wants to be friends with her children, and is really upset at the thought of sending Margot away even if it is for the good of her health.
My suspicion would be that EBD's own preference is the loving/friendly version, but she's so personally steeped in the first version she can't quite escape some of its norms/assumptions.

I think the bit (perhaps in Reunion?) where Jo rather tentatively advises Hilary to spank her naughty child is quite interesting, as is the bit where Jo is really upset about 'having' to spank Margot. Spanking must surely have been completely uncontroversial at the time, and ultimately EBD seems to see it as being sanctioned under certain circumstances if nothing else will work, but this still seems a rather progressive approach(?).

But then, from what little I know, I rather imagine EBD would probably have been very much the Mrs Pertwee kind of mother - which is very much not what she promotes!

Oh, and if she had had quads, which I agree wasn't an idea EBD was ever seriously flirting with, they would have to all be girls so they could be Chalet girls one day. Names are tricky as Jo's names are fairly random - but you could argue Cecil represents a shift towards 'naming children after people you probably ought to name them after', so on that basis I nominate Jo's other forgotten 'sisters' Juliet, Daisy and Primula, plus Mollie (makes perfect sense because of Mollie Maynard and Mollie Bettany). I'm stuck on the unappealing clumpy masculine shorts, though.

One of my problems with Joey as a mother is that some of the things that EBD shows where we are obviously meant to think what a wonderful mother she is, actually to me make me wince-and did as a child too.
Night time confessions to mum
Big parties for the triplets in term time when no one else could have them
Little "inspiring" talks
Behaving like a best friend to the triplets
Rushing over when they're ill at school and demanding to see them
Behaving "like a schoolgirl" particualrly when "busy" and with her children's friends
Singing at her little tea parties...
Telling her dc (and ML) confidential information about their friends

There are other things that, as a parent make me raise the face. One of the times I think she is meant to be showing how loving she is makes me smile ruefully. I think they're playing impertinant questions and she asks "Who broke the window?" and Margot bursts into tears and says she did by accident.
Joey says "You didn't confess because you knew that it would mean bed for the rest of the day. But I don't suppose you've been very happy the last 2 or 3 days knowing that so we'd say no more about it".
I am totally confident that if it was my dc (except possibly dd1) their thought would be "aha! This is a way to get out of being punished. If I don't say anything then either I won't be caught, and if I am mum won't punish me anyway". Dd1 would feel indignant because she would feel that they'd got away with something she probably wouldn't have.

I can see where EBD was coming from in that, but I know my dc would see that as a loophole and exploit it. Maybe my dc are just budding lawyers or something.

Heh, but that permeates the entire series, doesn't it - the notion of such inherent and unswerving honour. Grizel is the notable exception, which is yet another reason why I love her. The idea that Grizel works only to her own advantage is attributed to her upbringing (as in, she pursues her own interests at all times because she's incapable of appreciating other people's needs or feelings), rather than being a fairly normal thing for children to do, some of the time.
(But then, I do also really like this, in a way - one of my favourite things about the CS is the overriding assumption that people are basically good, most of the time. It just grates when that becomes 'people are all good, all of the time'.)

I remember as a child thinking I would have been beyond mortified if my mother was like Joey. I was (am) such a hide-in-the-corners-attracting-no-attention type, so I have wondered if she would be much more appealing as a mother to people who wanted to be marked out as 'special'.

I think there is also a marked difference between the rearing of boys and girls.

EDB bless her never understood men but has this idealised vision if the perfect man/boy.

So they are honourable, don't cry and have a horror or tears or emotions, they are all good at maths, ( see all joeys boys and nephews) they are happy to be sent off oy boarding school at 8, eager to go and pursue man stuff.

They aspire to do man jobs. Doctor, engineer, bank manager.

At a pinch naturalist or if eccentric an artist/music teacher.
If men don't conform to this they are bad eggs like Stephen Venables/carrick. Gambling she obviously hates, all her bad characters gamble or play cards in Sunday.

She describes Joey mothering as the way she thinks is the perfect balance between discipline and being a loving friend.

Of course she gets it wrong because she never had any children herself.

Joey would be your worst nightmare head of the PTA.

However my dm was very shy and suffered with anxiety all her life do we kids weren't able to do loads of things other kids were. She couldn't even go to the cinema and we couldn't just have friends around without giving weeks of notice.

So as a child Jo was my ideal mother. Open house, always entertaining the trips friends and Definatly not shy.

On quads names surely one would be Claire as she bangs on throughout the series about how much she likes it.

Mind when she tells Madge she couldn't call them all by the first letter c so discards Claire I am a bit confused when she then comes up with constance.

Er that's a c.

Nell yes that was me as a child I wanted to be special.

Going back to the question about the SSM, I think that EBD approved. It's so sympathetically told - I remember howling with laughter as a child at the exchange between Jo and Elizaveta about 'bagging the whole caboodle'. I think EBD is on the whole reasonably approving of 'nice naughtiness' which I think draws attention to her underlying assumption that people are basically good. In relation to the SSM, the middles are seen to want something entirely reasonable (the departure of an unsuitable matron) and in the end they get what they want. Along the way they're seen by the reader to make things easier for Madge - she doesn't like matron but doesn't know what to do about it, and then the girls' harsh voices give her a reason to say that she's a bad influence and should go.

I think the Tirol books were written before EBD had her own school, is that right? If so, did she become less approving of naughtiness (even the nice kind) once she was a headmistress? I can't bring to mind any occasions after the Tirolean books when nice naughtiness was so sympathetically treated.

Thebody, I think you must be my sister, because my mum was exactly like that too, and I thought Joey was the perfect mother for the same reasons! I loved the tea-parties where she played with and sang for everyone. We almost never had anyone round at our house, and I thought a home filled with visitors (and an Anna to rustle up meals for an extra 20 at a moment's notice) would be heaven.

Yes thebody she wants a Claire but will only use it if she can have all three starting with a C... Claire, Constance, but oh dear, can't think of a third so that idea's off - and then a few years later you get Cecil! And it's not even as if Cecil comes from nowhere in the intervening years - surely when she was casting around for people she might have named her babies after, she would have considered that?

True, I hadn't considered the gender difference point.

mornington see I didn't read it as making Madge's life much easier - all through Princess it appears that they only anticipate her being there one term anyway, which of course the girls don't know, but really they only make it a more difficult (half-)term than it needed to be - and then in the end she goes all power-crazed matron and locks the Robin in her room which would have surely been sufficient grounds for sacking anyway, so the SSM becomes a redundant side-show? I also think it's interesting that the snails on windows thing is one of the very few occasions where a misdeed goes undiscovered...
New House is a bit different again (partly because that Matron is less evil, more misguided), but we see Nell being privately annoyed at Joey (nb not SSM) for antagonising Matron Besley and putting her in the middle of it, and I think it's eventually Con who notices the SSM's staring thing and has to tell someone off for it - again, it seems to be that the anti-matron misbehaviour just makes more work for the 'good' staff. Again, I don't think the SSM are particularly instrumental in getting rid - I think that's mainly explained by Matron's own fear of thunderstorms iirc.

I like EBD's early tolerance for 'nice' naughtiness and think it's a loss in the later books, but I don't really see how the behaviour towards the Bad Matrons (most especially the Epsom salts in Matron Besley's tea) can be at all 'nice' - it just seems malicious to me. The most comparable behaviour I can think of in that era is Grizel vaselining the blackboards - of course the distinction is that Grizel's grievance is unjustified, but I think it's interesting how deeply unsympathetic EBD is towards Bad Adults given her great emphasis on honour and authority, though I'm not sure she would be so quick to condone a campaign against a disliked teacher. I'm certain she doesn't approve of Joyce and co's ragging of Miss Norman, though one could argue that this occasion happens because Miss Norman is lax in her discipline, and more concerned with her own financial position than the quality of the girls' learning.

Morning

Nell it's funny isn't it. And yes I too agree the nice naughtiness is definatly a feature of the early books although we do see a bit of that with the Dawbarn twins.

The later bad behaviour like Jack Lamberts bullying of Jane Carew wouldn't have been tolerated in the earlier books and am surprised that EDB allows Jacks friends to go along with this. It was very nasty and overt.

Question that annoys me. Why wouldn't Carola Johnstones mother have jumped at the chance of seeing a dd who had been so unhappy she ran away from her guardian. On what planet would she have stayed in Africa while her dh flew alone. And he's the busy working one here. Seriously.

And didn't they write? Wouldn't they actually realise carola was 15? Wouldn't she have told them about her travels and her need for school?

Makes no sense.

The C things occurred to me when I first read the book too.

And TheBody I agree about Carola. Why didn't she write begging her parents to send her to school, rather than asking her aunt? Or wire them, Carola obviously had enough money to be able to send a telegram. They obviously were fairly easily get-at-able as the school got hold of them pretty easily.
And the "didn't think" I always thought that was unfair. Carola did think. She managed to plan running away and getting her clothes, and passing it off till she got to school. pretty good thoughful planning.
I also found it difficult to imagine that her mum wouldn't have come back occasionally to see her, I'm sure they could have hired a housekeeper or something if her dad was really that incapable.

I never got really why Madge was so furious over Grizel vaselining the boards. It seemed OTT to me. Yes, get her to clean it off, take her away and talk about not being so silly, but if I remember right Madge is white with fury before Grizel owns up.

Ime even the pretty extrovert types tended to cringe if their parents (esp mum, dad's seemed to get away with it better) tried to be too matey with their friends, when they were in their teens. By university age, yes, I think Joey could be embraced again, but in their teens. And neither Len or Con are attention seeking, would almost certainly be embarrassed. Margot however is the only one who seems to rebel against it though.

The whole thing with Carola's parents makes absolutely no sense at all. How on earth could they forget what age their daughter is? And there is absolutely no explanation given as to why her mother didn't come home to see her as well as her father. Overall I quite like that book, but the premise it's built on is a bit rubbish.

Agree I think carola has potential as a logistics planner.

Her dad calling her lassie all the time is bloody annoying.

And agree my teens just wanted lifts/money absolutely no conversation with their friends. One thanked me for a lift and I said * that's fine love by the horror on my sons face it was like I had said come here you animal and give it to me

They hate parents who try to be teens.

You are right about the Vaseline incident. Madge did go OTT going white with anger. Good point.

Can we also work out why Melanie Lucas doesn't see her parents for years? They couldn't get on a plane once in a while?

And when she mentioned the chalet school wouldn't mamma have said oh my sister Jeannie went there

Actually why wouldn't her mother have gone there too?

Oh and Joey was a right bitch to the auntie who is clearly childless telling her she sleeps with one ear open as you have to with a bunch of babies

She may as well have given her the poor sweet label for childless phoebe peters.

I always looked on how Carola's parents viewed her as a small child as the fact that in their head they still see her as young and roughly the same age they last left her and even though they know she's 15 can't imagine her that way. I've had similar with friends children, when I haven't seen them for a few years, even though I know they are a certain age I still see them in my mind as the younger version of them I last saw. Plus if they had no contact with other children it might be a shock to see how there daughter actually is at 15. Obviously this still doesn't explain why they didn't see her for years etc.

I'm reading Gay and there is a line in it where Jo is saying that her first job is as a parent, I guess it's a shame she never always lived up to this, at least not to her own children, sometimes she's too busy parenting everyone else to notice her own (thinking particularly of the ML accident)

It's also the book when Jem ignores Syble for the accident to Josette, it's really heartbreaking, can you imagine a poor child who knows their sister is seriously hurt and knowing that they may have contributed to it and then to not see either parent for days, I assume during all this time she was at the school rather than home. It would take a really hard heart to not comfort a 10 year old when they needed it. Not much Christian forgiveness there, despite the fact that religion plays such a large part in their lives.

Yes I mean Sybil didn't chuck the boiling water at her did she it was an accident.

To be honest if I was Jem I would have been asking where were all these bloody helpers Marie and Rosa and why wasn't s 10 year old being supervised in the kitchen.

I think jack ignored mike over the cliff incident and Margot over the Ted debarcle too. Still they were older than Sybil and had acted deliberately.

I don't know why poor Sybs is treated so harshly. The Simone bridesmaid incident still makes me cross

And Sybil had been told it was her fault so I'm sure she totally believed that. I just can't imagine treating a child that way. I can understand Madge more, Josette was seriously ill, near death we are told, and I can understand her not wanting to leave her, but Jem isn't with Josette the whole time. So Sybil is left on her own with her own guilt, I wonder if she knew how ill Josette was. That's a lot for a 10 year old to take on, let alone having to go through it all with no support.

And she's still being told ages afterwards that it was her fault - Jo says as much in I think Peggy - something like "I felt sorriest for you because if she'd died you would have known you were to blame" or something. That's a bad enough response at the time (and can we just take a moment to appreciate the actual Best Mother of the CS, Madge, who doesn't ever think or say this to Sybil) but can just about be understood in a context of panic, fear etc - but Jo is still pushing this years later? Horrible.
(It's exactly as she does with Eustacia btw - and on that occasion Jem has told her that it wouldn't have been Eustacia's fault, and Robin is in fact already better, but she's still insisting that Eustacia nearly killed Das Engelkind. Then eventually she 'forgives' Eustacia for nearly killing Das Engelkind. Erm, no.)

I still don't really buy the thing about Carola's parents. I know exactly the way it feels with other people's children - "omg how did you get so old?" - but surely even if you were away from your child for years on end, you'd be thinking of her, and when you don't actually know her as a person, the details you would know, like her age, would be especially clear? I assume that other people's children grow unexpectedly because I'm not often thinking about them if I don't see them.

Reading Head Girl. It mentions that Jo hates doing sheepdog because she thinks it's best for girls to find their feet on their own if possible (re. Cornelia). She seems to rather lose this wisdom later on...

It feels fairly awful that Madge looks after everyone else's kids all the time, but when her second daughter is (seemingly) dying there doesn't seem to be anyone who does the same for her elder girl. Apart from perhaps Matey, since it's Matey who tells Jem he has to forgive Sybil before he ends up with two sick children. I know the school is stretched at that point because of the accident (and not letting on how difficult things are at the school is a kindness to Madge), and I get that Jo is completely unsuited to such a role, but surely there would be someone? I'd actually like to think Grizel would have been able to say something kind, or Simone.

You would think that actually the school would comfort Sybil, but I suspect they only hear of the incident through Joey and probably Robin who will have been told by Joey.
And Sybil was probably trying to be helpful rather than silly, so a cuddly, "I know you wanted to make a cup of tea for mummy, but you really shouldn't have touched the kettle. Do you realsie that now?" would be much more appropriate that being really angry with her.

Dd2 (very tall 10yo)made a concerted attempt to kill ds (fairly small 7yo) by trying to play bumper cars with the study chairs (on wheels). She pushed off with her feet against the wall, her chair shot across the hard floor hitting ds' (which was what she had intended) catapulting ds across the air and into the wall.
Once I'd picked up ds, patched him back together and decided a wait and see policy was better than A&E, the talk with dd2 was much more on "think before you act" rather than telling off and punishment. If I'd punished her she would have felt resentful for what was an accident (albeit a rather stupid one) as it was she will remember and hopefully think a little more carefully next time.

The bit where Joey "forgives" Eustacia always riles me. Particularly when it has to say that Eustacia is "eternally grateful" to Jo for that. Grrr.

Y y to all that and to the Eustacia incident.

To be honest here's a girl who has lost her parents, goes to her cousins who are pretty horrible to her just because she's different or pehaps too clever for a girl! And then the school are pretty vile to her too.

This notion of blaming children for Un intended concequences is strange.

Dewee your dd has a certain style about her though.

Thank god for those wandering doctors and their dogs to save chalet girls in peril though and then to marry the teacher involved.

I bet if I fell off a cliff or into a pool it would he my luck to be rescued by a fat middle aged bloke with bad breath.

And Dds had a cream cake yesterday but thankfully didn't walk in their sleep.

Might try Norse or Irish folk tales tonight. See if that works.

I do wonder if EBD thought children had no feelings at all about losing a parent. In Tom Tackles a comment is made about the school's youngest pupil, a six year old who has just lost her parents, is 'inherited' by the family lawyer and immediately packed off to school with his, much older, daughters. Mrs Gay is all sympathy but Miss Wilson cheerfully announces there's no need for pity for she's quite happy. Only Robin was ever allowed to be upset, and only about the loss of her mother.