As a mother...

[Ducksinthebath]

"As a mother..." seems to be how about how just about every opinion expressed to me about the Middle East situation seems to start at the moment.

Same for XL Bully issues, the recent party conferences and every blooming thought that comes out someone's head about the environment.

I feel like I'm in an echo chamber with Andrea Leadsom and it's irritating.

This has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read on MN.

Interestingly using stereotypes, and therefore biases, is actually linked to having lower empathy. So those who create an assumption, or a bias or a stereotype of childless women being less empathetic are in fact demonstrating that they are less empathetic. A bit of an own goal...

It's really not if you're childfree by choice.

And I would tell you that I felt different at 25 from 35 - without having cared for children. My life changed beyond recognition in that period, too.

Everyone grows up and matures through life. If you don’t k ow how you would have felt without children, why are you convinced it couldn’t have been the same for you as for me?

That's rather an impossible question because you're talking about empathy as if it's a have it/don't have it quality when it's actually far more nuanced.

Do you think you'd have as much empathy towards someone who's just had their house repossessed as a person who's experienced the exact same thing would? (Assuming you've not been in that situation).

Do you think your empathy levels for a soldier returning from the front would be the same as the empathy from a veteran?

Lived experience is one of the things that develops our empathy. I would never be so arrogant as to tell you I understand how you feel or felt in experiencing so many pregnancy losses or in nursing a sick grandparent because I don't.

Ah you are now acknowledging parenthood not just motherhood, I suppose that's a start to widening the view.

But not in the same way as parenthood, they can't.

Where did I say they did have the exact same impact as parenthood. I think my entire discussion has been that no 2 brains are the same and a range of things have an effect on cognitive function. I think you have added in "the same impact on cognitive function" part

You couldn't be more wrong.

which bit. Because it it's the bit where you haven't apologised for your ableism I'm not sure how your day job somehow makes it okay.

Of course what you say is self- explanatorily true.

Excellent I'm glad we agree that a broad assumption that all mothers (or I supposed we are up to parents now) are more empathetic than childfree people is incorrect

I WAS childfree by choice. Until I found myself pregnant. It's really not that hard to understand.

Unless you are suggesting that a mother was always a mother, even before she had children? And therefore that there IS something fundamentally different about being a mother?

You can't have it both ways.

It isn't though.
If I had contraception failure I would not continue pregnancy. I am childfree by choice not by chance

You seem obsessed by the idea of empathy. Empathy isn't one attribute it is made up of many different abilities and has many different forms. What mothers are is incredibly "tuned-in" to their infants. They tend to see everything through that lens. However it probably comes with reduced empathy for other situations as they remain focused on " how this will effect my baby" to the near exclusion of everything else.

Two examples of this :

My mother was newly delivered on the day of the Kings Cross fire. She has told me she didn't feel empathy for thosexwho had died or their loved ones becausexshexwas entirely focused on her baby's needs.

The partners of new mothers also often feel thatvtheir needs or feelings aren't considered after their partners becomes a mother.

So I am not sure that empathy in it's widest meaning is a particularly useful concept.

Actually studies show that people who have experienced the same experiences often understand the position of the other better but can actually be inclined to less empathy rather than more

This is broad strokes obviously so I'm not trying to comment on the poster that you are responding to and their reaction to people in the same situation

It's a sort of "I coped so you should be able to cope" effect

I'm obsessed and you are just giving examples?

Sure sure

You are the one saying mothers have more empathy. If you now want to go back on that or say its not important you can do that without being insulting.

Or is it perhaps because my post bothered you?

Look I am not goi g down a rabbit hole of what does?or doesn't constitute " better" thinking. It wasn't my choosen expression as I have repeatedly stated. Better is fairly meaningless anyway, better at what ? Lateral, flexible thinking and problem solving - yes probrably. Less aggressive or more tolerant ?- unlikely they are not called mama bears for nothing.

Why?

Dear god RTFT it wasn't me who said either of those things- I ( perhaps foolishly in retrospect) agreed with someone else's assertion.

I'm not sure I have the two things you say I am referring to right because your post isn't clear but you did say:

So we can agree that through both nature and nurture ( most) mother's brain become both more responsive to subtle emotional cues ( which could be interpreted as more emphatic)

And

You seem obsessed by the idea of empathy

So you did call me obsessed and you did say that most mothers brains become more responsive to subtle emotional cues which could be interpreted as more empathetic.

This is the second time you have accused posters of lying about what you have said.

I’m out. These threads always go the same way and none of the ‘mothers are best’ crew ever show any sign of modifying their thinking, or ever appear as though they might stop telling childless and childfree women how wrong they are about everything.

Even on our own board. It’s too tiring and the rugby is too good for me to give this any more energy tonight.

Ditto. It's such a shame we can't have this board to ourselves without being belittled at every turn. I dared to think it might be different!

I think it's best if we both step aqay here have a ☕

Me three. Bloody sick of this board tonight.

Of course it's not, if you don't want children by choice and aren't childfree by chance. But you wouldn't have read it at all, had you not come on to a thread on the childfree board. So that's maybe worth considering.

Because how does a woman who hasn't got children describe herself other than either childless or childfree?

I don't need a cup of tea, or to step away, but thanks for the patronising reply

I'm assuming it's to cover for the fact that you were caught out lying again?

Yes probably best you do step away in that case

Yeah, it’s shit phrasing but personally, my feelings towards children and babies have totally changed since I had my son.

Before having him I was only interested in animals, children bored me and honestly I found babies slightly repugnant.

I still love animals but now I have so much tenderness towards random babies and want to protect them and nurture them. Something definitely changed within me when I became a mother.

You hadn’t planned never to have children, you had just not planned to have them. So you were not childfree. You were pre children.

Retrospectively, I could say I was pre children. But at the time, I considered myself childfree.

Unless one has gone through the menopause or is infertile you never know what life might throw at you and how you might feel about it.