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MNers without children

This board is primarily for MNers without children - others are welcome to post but please be respectful

Original poster

As a mother...

306 replies

Ducksinthebath · 13/10/2023 16:20

"As a mother..." seems to be how about how just about every opinion expressed to me about the Middle East situation seems to start at the moment.

Same for XL Bully issues, the recent party conferences and every blooming thought that comes out someone's head about the environment.

I feel like I'm in an echo chamber with Andrea Leadsom and it's irritating.

OP posts:
Goldencup · 15/10/2023 17:08

Insommmmnia · 15/10/2023 17:03

Yes I deliberately chose changes along the full length of the scale. From the large - trauma and ptsd, to the moderate - pcos and endometriosis, to the small - reading, listening to music, drinking coffee.

That doesn't change my points, that:

A. No two brains work the same way not even twins
B. Lots of life events change brains function

Which agrees with the other post I have made above. That going through pregnancy changes you personally but that you cannot assume that that gives you a comparator to a childfree person e.g. mothers are always more empathetic than non mothers.

Because for starters many childfree people are more empathetic than mothers who abuse their children and because everyone's brains are different so you cannot make that assumption. Someone's "more empathetic after having children" may still be less empathetic than someone else before they had children.

For reference I have been through pregnancy and childbirth. My baby was stillborn. So it's not like I haven't experienced these changes myself. It's just I don't think that means my viewpoint is so identical to other mothers and so different to childfree women than the phrase "as a mother" before a statement is anything other then pointless.

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I am having to clean the bathroom just now so can't go in to this, but it is not just empathy which changes it is also processing and executive function. Of course no 2 people think the same way, but the point is nearly everybody thinks differently after pregnancy ( and after the menopause- that's another topic)

daliesque · 15/10/2023 17:15

It is true to say though that I was child free until I was 30

And you think that means you understand what it is like to still be childfree in your 40's and 50's?

Bless.

Insommmmnia · 15/10/2023 17:17

Goldencup · 15/10/2023 17:08

I am having to clean the bathroom just now so can't go in to this, but it is not just empathy which changes it is also processing and executive function. Of course no 2 people think the same way, but the point is nearly everybody thinks differently after pregnancy ( and after the menopause- that's another topic)

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Yes but the point isnt that people don't think differently after pregnancy.

It was that the phrase "as a mother" assumes that all mothers think the same and that they all think different to non mothers.

And that's blatantly not true as mothers don't all vote for the same political party, have the same opinion on the middle east conflict, have the same opinion on trans issues etc etc as we see on MN.

And the point I made to you was that not only do people think differently after pregnancy they also think differently after trauma etc, so people thinking differently after a life event isn't isolated to pregnancy. Nor for that matter is it isolated to women, changes in men's brain function have been found after their children are born.

Insommmmnia · 15/10/2023 17:28

Yes another thread on the childfree board where parents have come to tell us we are wrong 🙄

I didn't want the board taking out of active originally because then how do new childfree members find us but honestly I think it would be better maybe because so many threads seem to defend into us arguing that we are not selfish mean unempathetic bitches just because we moaned about a sterotype that implies we are selfish mean unempathetic bitches🙄

booksandbrooks · 15/10/2023 17:30

I don't see that universality from the phrase.

It's not a phrase I've used or heard used irl outside of that Bill Bailey stand up though.

Dontcallmescarface · 15/10/2023 17:33

Well as a mother I couldn't give a fat rat's crack about tights, or how anyone chooses to feed their baby etc. Nor do I believe that my opinion of anything is worth more than those of anybody else whether they have chosen to have children, unable to have children or are childfree by choice.

hermioneee · 15/10/2023 17:36

The thing that bothers me most .. and I think it's related to this, is people only asking mothers how they cope and not fathers.

For example - woman on leadership panel - "how do you cope with having children and being successful in your job"

Fathers or men in general - tumbleweed

IKnowHowToSayMyName · 15/10/2023 17:36

Dontcallmescarface · 15/10/2023 17:33

Well as a mother I couldn't give a fat rat's crack about tights, or how anyone chooses to feed their baby etc. Nor do I believe that my opinion of anything is worth more than those of anybody else whether they have chosen to have children, unable to have children or are childfree by choice.

Edited

Can I be your friend? :-D

SoRainbowRhythms · 15/10/2023 17:38

Insommmmnia · 15/10/2023 16:53

'god I hate kids, I can't imagine anything worse'

How is that them insulting you? If, for example, you were a professional dancer and they said "God I hate dancing in public, I can't imagine anything worse" would you think they were insulting you as a dancer, or making a statement that they personally don't like dancing?

it totally validated their decision not to have kids because it was so awful.

And if you had your kids go away to camp for a week and you told your friend that you had missed them and them being away made you realise how much you loved being a mother and how it validated you having children because it was awful being without them would you be saying that to insult your childfree friends?

these aren't insults directed at you as they read from your post - although tone, intonation etc can add a great deal, so perhaps the were mean people being mean, it's not like childfree people and parents can't equally be mean. Some people are mean some people aren't. Whether they have kids is irrelevant to that, which is kind of the point we are trying to make - that assuming a sterotype about childfree people being "selfish, mean, cold..." is irritating.

Do people resent people saying 'as a black person, George Floyd was especially painful for me.'

A. as a mixed race person I get very very fucking bored of black people being brought in as the comparator to every situation

B. The whole point here is that the comparator would be "As a black mother, George Floyd was especially painful to me" as if young black men who get singled out by the police in America constantly couldn't possibly feel as much

But no, a group of childfree women on the childfree board getting irritated by things like "as a woman I find the fit of tights to be especially important" is not the same as black people speaking out against generations of racism and violence against them. You appear to be the only person who thinks it is.

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I'm just going to quote this every time us childfree / childless folk are attacked in our own forum.

sqirrelfriends · 15/10/2023 17:39

I’m guilty of saying it, not often and never about the importance of well fitting tights.

Before I had kids I was sympathetic to children being hurt or killed but I didn’t fully understand just how much a parent loves their child, the protective instincts etc. Since I gave birth I can’t watch certain things on tv, or read the news like I could because I just end up horrified.

FarEast · 15/10/2023 17:43

It was that the phrase "as a mother" assumes that all mothers think the same and that they all think different to non mothers.

And that their thinking after pregnancy is better, more empathetic, more connected to the plight of the world's children yadda yadda yadda.

IKnowHowToSayMyName · 15/10/2023 17:44

The phrase also suggests that childfree women couldn't POSSIBLY understand whatever it is as much as a mother.

It's patronizing and a way to look down on childfree women.

Goldencup · 15/10/2023 17:52

FarEast · 15/10/2023 17:43

It was that the phrase "as a mother" assumes that all mothers think the same and that they all think different to non mothers.

And that their thinking after pregnancy is better, more empathetic, more connected to the plight of the world's children yadda yadda yadda.

Yeah but, the problem is that is exactly what the evidence shows.

FarEast · 15/10/2023 17:53

Since I gave birth I can’t watch certain things on tv, or read the news like I could because I just end up horrified.

Neither can I. But I am childless.

Insommmmnia · 15/10/2023 18:00

Goldencup · 15/10/2023 17:52

Yeah but, the problem is that is exactly what the evidence shows.

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Please show us the evidence that all mothers are more empathetic than all childless women

Alstroemeria123 · 15/10/2023 18:02

Insommmmnia · 15/10/2023 18:00

Please show us the evidence that all mothers are more empathetic than all childless women

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I’m certainly not getting the “more empathetic” impression from some of the mothers who decide to post on the childfree forum

FarEast · 15/10/2023 18:05

And conveniently ignores that it's mostly parents who abuse children ...

Dontcallmescarface · 15/10/2023 18:06

IKnowHowToSayMyName · 15/10/2023 17:36

Can I be your friend? :-D

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😁

daliesque · 15/10/2023 18:08

IKnowHowToSayMyName · 15/10/2023 17:44

The phrase also suggests that childfree women couldn't POSSIBLY understand whatever it is as much as a mother.

It's patronizing and a way to look down on childfree women.

Also remember we don't understand that babies need feeding a lot. I mean, how did I get to the grand old age of 50 without knowing that? Not to mention the medical degree and, you know, just general living and growing up and knowing things 🤷‍♀️

SallyWD · 15/10/2023 18:08

FarEast · 15/10/2023 17:53

Since I gave birth I can’t watch certain things on tv, or read the news like I could because I just end up horrified.

Neither can I. But I am childless.

Exactly I hear mothers say this but I was exactly the same before kids.

Insommmmnia · 15/10/2023 18:09

Alstroemeria123 · 15/10/2023 18:02

I’m certainly not getting the “more empathetic” impression from some of the mothers who decide to post on the childfree forum

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No, not at all!

Applesandcarrots · 15/10/2023 18:18

They are not more emphatic.
Many are simply more scared. Scared of threats to their kids even if they are absolutely not reasonable in aome cases, decisions (mind bogglingly simple ones gathering from MN), anything really.
I mean just look at MN...
However, people don't like to admit to being scared of everything so it gets covered by "I am just more emphatic than you".

Applesandcarrots · 15/10/2023 18:25

I realise that came way harsher than intended! Sorry

MillieVonPinkle · 15/10/2023 18:39

And that their thinking after pregnancy is better, more empathetic, more connected to the plight of the world's children yadda yadda yadda

I don't think it's that. I have children. I'm not a particularly empathetic person. I'm not a hand wringer or a crier. I certainly dont think I feel more for the people affected than someone child free.

I think it comes from the awful, horrendous thought of putting yourself in their position but with added caring responsibilities.

Hypothetically...the thought of someone dropping me and dh in the middle of Gaza now would be awful. But I'd go into practical mode. We're fit and healthy adults, we'd (obviously) do our best to stay safe, whatever that looked like.

By comparison, the thought of someone dropping us in Gaza with our three dc makes me feel ice cold with terror. Not because I'm a wonderful mummykins who loves her ickle ones sooooo much. But because it's three whole people who can't care for themselves or help in any way. Three more mouths to find food and water for. Three small people that can't pick up a backpack and run if bombs start dropping. Three people far more susceptible to dehydration, malnutrition, disease when there's no medical care. Who aren't sensible, won't be quiet when told, may panic and put themselves in danger. And of course it's not just the worry for them...I'd imagine having dc make it far more difficult to keep yourself safe too. They're a liability at the best of times never mind in war.

It's the weight of responsibility for them because you have to be. It's huge. You have no choice. In a warzone. Fuck me, it must be sickening, horrifying. It does make me think of the parents of Gaza at the forefront of my mind.

But I think as a VERY big generalisation, parents may be able to visualise or 'feel' the horror slightly more than your average healthy single adult or adults, with thoughts of those they're responsible for at the front of their minds.

Also...this is NOT an attack on the childfree at all. This thread just popped up in my actives. It's not meant as such and genuine apologies if this gives anyone offence as it's not my intent. It's very hard to put into words what I actually mean!

Goldencup · 15/10/2023 18:59

This summarises it reasonably well
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364661322003023