Population overload.

[chaosmaker]

Just wondering if anyone else thinks that we are at a stage where we should incentivise/reward people who choose not to breed. We're on a finitely resourced planet and I've just read a thread where people were talking about some celebrity having a 4th kid via a surrogate.
Should we talk about how the more kids you have, the more competition you are making for them in adult life?

AI is already being used to take over previously human staffed jobs. It's been creeping into jobs like journalism for ages.
There have been famines in various countries for ever and yet we are at a point in evolution where we have more power over our fertility than ever.
Interested in what other people think about this.

I'm not sure what great value you think would be achieved by ruminating on the suffering and death built into a life - rather that just accept that it is what it is and the price of being alive? I really enjoy life, imperfect and compromised as it is.

I don't think people are selfish for not having children. I don't think people are narcissistic for having children. I don't think any pantomime villains are required to have a conversation about population growth and decline.

Of all "the consequences " you mention in your previous post you've picked the most ridiculous ones.

Yes it is the inevitable order but of things that older people/parents die first ( usually)

How do you know who is going to suffer from ill health or mental health problems or indeed who will be run over by a bus?

I agree that taking into consideration climate change, resources etc is significant and important.

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow

Agree no pantomime villains needed.

Firstly that is easy to say when you are in the first half of adult life and/or healthy. You cannot know how you will feel about your life as a whole until you reach its end.

Secondly, the point of ruminating on this subject is to consider whether it is right to bring a child into the world. Most people conceive a child for ego-driven reasons. They fear mortality and they want a legacy, but they aren't solving any existential problems by having a child: they are just passing them on to the next generation.

Everyone needs to decide on their own answer as to whether it is right to conceive. I wouldn't criticise anyone for deciding to have children, but I certainly criticise people (if they have a choice, which, globally, many women don't) who conceive without giving any thought to the life the child may experience when older.

It's very revealing that parents are so uncomfortable with thinking about this. Every bit of suffering your children experience throughout their lives is due to your decision to conceive them. You might not like that thought, but it is true. Of course, every bit of pleasure they experience is also due to your decision and, for many people, the pleasure outweighs the suffering, but for no means all.

And I'll talk about what I like on this thread, thanks. Over-population and the narcissistic desire to reproduce are intimately linked.

And I'll talk about what I like on this thread, thanks. Over-population and the narcissistic desire to reproduce are intimately linked.

Yep and you come over like it's all about you.

It appears that no one really wants to think about it all. Politicians don’t plan that much in advance.

Someone did experiments with caged rats where the only limitation was space. The rats eventually stopped breeding, amongst other behavioural changes including fighting, overgrooming, and becoming catatonic. So rats at least will stop breeding if overcrowded.

No. Having sex is and kids are the consequence. Plenty of people don't want kids but want sex.

Well, that's a false assumption on your part, I live with a chronic illness and have done my whole life. It requires a hefty dose of meds and patience to manage. And as it happens - I'd make the trade for living any day of the week. I'm happy, optimistic and enthusiastic about living in the world, so I expect I'm doing better than most.

You can criticise all you want about how children come into the world. About who worthily gnashes their teeth about the pitfalls first and those who breezily hope for the best, it makes no difference to the broader discussion of population rates or to the life outcomes of the child.

I'm not uncomfortable thinking about this I just think it's not useful about how to tackle the problems it presents. Talk about whatever you like, you just sound unhinged when you pathologise the majority of the population.

Most people conceive a child for ego-driven reasons. They fear mortality and they want a legacy, but they aren't solving any existential problems by having a child: they are just passing them on to the next generation.

Yep I'm sure you know that. Just as you would know why people don't have children.

This thread is an eye opener.

First time I have ever heard that people who have children are driven by narcissism.

It is interesting that whilst there is a concern about the impact of high population we are also living in a time where women's access to birth control and abortion is being eroded.

I think overconsumption rather than overpopulation is most concerning, and will continue to be our downfall potentially. Flying, factory farming and endless consumption of largely throwaway and polluting consumables (clothes, cars , holidays, endless furniture , electrical items , meaningless tat of all varieties ) has got to be a bigger worry than who has two children and who has four ?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1644264/ John Calhoun's research paper about mouse overcrowding.

Yes, it literally is. But I'm not wasting anymore time here. You don't want kids, I do. We are not the same. Oh and if you support abortion, don't even think about talking to me.

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia
That is interesting, but the human race are not running out of space but running out of resources / damaging the environment due to high and completely unsustainable levels of consumption.

Oh and if you support abortion, don't even think about talking to me

It'll be a real loss, not being able to talk to someone who called us psychopaths and agrees with women being forced to continue with pregnancies they don't want. I'm sure I'll manage, though.

I would say if you want children dont even think about coming on to the childfree forum to argue with childfree people and yet here you are

But what do I know, Im pro choice.

What a strange thread this is. I don't really think its about over population at all.

I think that the point is that if overconsumption per person is a problem, then having four children or two children is a big part of that, as four new people will overconsume more than two new people

I still dont agree with legislating womens choices around children, and I do agree that if we could reduce overconsumption it would probably be at least is, if not more, beneficial than reducing over populatation.

Tories were always telling people like me not to have kids we cant afford
Then a while back it was all our fault for not having enough kids.

(im child free by choice but not because they told me to be)

Why is a " global over population " thread on the CF board anyway?

A lot of posters are making this discussion about them. Was that sort of inevitable maybe?

A lot of posters are making this discussion about them. Was that sort of inevitable maybe?

Are you new here? 😅

I like the idea of reducing overconsumption, but to my mind that would mean banning most air travel, private cars, disposable plastics, limiting water usage and a host of other things. I'm up for it, but most people I meet seem to think they have a right to breaks, abroad, several cars, hot tubs etc. I don't know how it could work but I'd totally be there for it as I sort of live a low consumption rate anyway. Reducing population would reduce some impact on the environment also and I agree with incentives and benefits for the childfree or small families = those with replacement rate of 2 kids or less.

*Just thought it may be a more appropriate area on this forum to post but clearly not as there is always at least one person who takes it as if you are talking to them personally.

@chaosmaker *

Why is this "a more appropriate area" ?

More appropriate than what?

@MrsDanversGlidesAgain You said you are in your late 60s. What were peoples attitudes towards you like when you said you didnt want children. Im 50 so i was in my twenties in the 1990s and i had some people think it was strange, my DM was disappointed but came to terms with it and is fine now. I did three TV chat shows where one charming American man shouted "youre not human" at me Im in the UK for clarification That happened at a regional chat show i travelled to Nottingham for. Im just wondering what your experiences of this was when you were younger.

I’m sure @MrsDanversGlidesAgain will response, but I imagine it was even more extreme.

Your experience surprises me as I’m a similar age (48) and know so many people who’ve chosen to be child free. It’s really not unusual among our age group. I can see that it would be surprising/shocking to our parents’ generation though.

My family were fine with it (to my face, I have no idea what if anything they said when I wasn't there). Ex was fine with it (he didn't want them either) and the ILs didn't say anything, so I was clearly fortunate enought to be around some enlightened and open minded people. I count myself very lucky that I've avoided the comments that have come the way of other women who made the same decision.

Oddly the people who did have a problem with it and said so were men. One male colleague regularly harangued me about being selfish, who was going to look after me, I'd die alone until told (somewhat robustly) to mind his own business. Mostly I pitied his daughter who was about five at the time but obviously with daddy's attitudes was never going to be able to make a decision about her own fertility when she grew up. Another asked me outright after I'd been married six months 'Not started a family yet then?' But mostly colleagues and friends and family have been well mannered and open minded enough not to pursue the subject after the initial enquiry of 'Do you have children?' and being told no.

One colleague at exjob was convinced I had a daughter, though. No idea where that came from.

I think the reason I have go off lightly comes from living for years in a big city where there are lots of different lifestyles and most people are pretty accepting of that and don't question choices. I can imagine it might have been different if I'd stayed in the small Devon town where I grew up in the 60s. Be seen talking to a boy you'd known since you were five and people started planning their wedding outfits.

Of course it might just be my RBF that put people off asking. 😆