Population overload.

[chaosmaker]

Just wondering if anyone else thinks that we are at a stage where we should incentivise/reward people who choose not to breed. We're on a finitely resourced planet and I've just read a thread where people were talking about some celebrity having a 4th kid via a surrogate.
Should we talk about how the more kids you have, the more competition you are making for them in adult life?

AI is already being used to take over previously human staffed jobs. It's been creeping into jobs like journalism for ages.
There have been famines in various countries for ever and yet we are at a point in evolution where we have more power over our fertility than ever.
Interested in what other people think about this.

How painful @SarahShorty I’m sorry to hear it. I have friends who struggle with infertility and my heart really goes out to them.

I think the essential problem is that it isn't anything to do with society how many children a woman has. There can be incentives and deterrents to having children but all animals exist with a strong biological drive to reproduce and humans are no different. I think consumption and environmental damage, basically capitalism, are the real issue.

@Backstreets thank you xx I wouldn't wish this on anyone. It's so horrible.

"people who choose not to breed"

Are you serious with your terminology?

Besides, you are utterly wrong about the population crisis. A simple internet search would have given you plenty of information.

Is that true? I thought the biological urge was to mate rather than to reproduce and the reproducing was just the result for want of a better term.

Germany too -- they have long parental leaves, virtually free childcare and 200/month child benefit to encourage people to have children

A big reason they took in 1 million Syrian refugees was because they realised this was a highly educated and skilled group of people, who could help make up for the declining and aging population

Is it? But immigration is escalating the population so...

It was seriously suggested after WW1. Too many 'surplus women' cluttering up the place and not reproducing because of, you know, millions of men being killed in a war.

Is there any insult that hasn't been used about women without children this week? this is getting tiresome.

The theory is that when populations become educated they stop mass baby producing - and actually to much so. China and India are on the trajectory to do so apparently and global population will top out at 9bln before decreasing.

Because the more educated a person becomes, the more stress they place on themselves. Better education leads to high-stress jobs. Stress damages eggs, sperm and wreaks havoc on sex hormones and the endocrine system. This has more of an effect on women than it does men, as women for lack of a better word, expire, by around their mid-40s. So she's more likely to put off motherhood into her 40s while she gets to where she wants to be career-wise.

Because the more educated a person becomes, the more stress they place on themselves. Better education leads to high-stress jobs. Stress damages eggs, sperm and wreaks havoc on sex hormones and the endocrine system. This has more of an effect on women than it does men, as women for lack of a better word, expire, by around their mid-40s. So she's more likely to put off motherhood into her 40s while she gets to where she wants to be career-wise.

Err you don't think it's stressful bringing up 6 kids and relying on the weather for a good harvest and to feed them and with no access to birth control?

Better Education leads to MORE CHOICES!

I really shudder to see how badly people understand biology on these kinds of threads, my goodness

Because the more educated a person becomes, the more stress they place on themselves. Better education leads to high-stress jobs. Stress damages eggs, sperm and wreaks havoc on sex hormones and the endocrine system. This has more of an effect on women than it does men, as women for lack of a better word, expire, by around their mid-40s. So she's more likely to put off motherhood into her 40s while she gets to where she wants to be career-wise.

Good grief, where do you start?

Educated women have more choices. They have access to better paid jobs, career advancement and higher salaries, which they don't necessarily want to give up or compromise by taking time off for maternity leave. They have awareness off and access to better contraception which means they can limit any family they do have; they are more aware of how to be healthy, which means if they do have children, maternal and child mortality outcomes are better so they don't have to have as many children to ensure thay some at least of them survive, and they have tend to have them older after establishing themselves in their careers. And as educated women have historically tended to marry up, they usually marry men who don't demand a baby a year and that their wife stays in the home.

Yes, but it is more people for certain demographics having more than two kids. Those are the ones who should be having less. However, it is a cultural thing so not sure if they would be interested in having less.

"Choose not to breed"

Not a very nice turn of phrase?

You're wrong, btw.

Wow

Fertility rates are falling, the one I found most interesting is that in the Philippines dropped from 2.7 in 2017 to 1.9 in 2022. Extraordinary decline within 5 years, India is at around replacement rate, possibly just below.

The world population has seen quite a big decline, I used to think people shouldn’t have bigger families, now I’m easy about it as long as they are responsible human beings. I’m one and done myself so have no skin in the game. The problem is the period of transition and the peak. Countries like Egypt already struggle with water shortages and there are ongoing tensions with Ethiopia about a planned damn. But the government is encouraging people to limit family size.

It’s all extremely interesting.

I wonder what has caused the change in the Philippines, I’m not knowledgable about birth rates and population and the effects etc but to me that seems like a huge change in a short amount of time.

There are too many people on the planet, I can't imagine anyone arguing with that surely? Unfortunately a big drop in births means there's then no one to pay for the elderly. Under capitalism, economic growth relies on high birth rates.

So you can't win really. Buggered if everyone has loads of kids and buggered if they don't.

I don't think we should incentivise people to have less children because it's a very short gap between incentivise and legislate against and womens rights get eroded enough

I think reversing the access to abortions in America is ridiculous given the population size issues. I think we should be concentrating on educating women, giving them better opportunities, equalising wealth, free easy access to contraception, free easy access to abortion.

And many of the places where this needs doing are incredibly male centric. Reversing men's dominance in government, medical matters, capitalism and general life would go a long way I think.

Yeah it’s amazing, I think it may have to do with government programs on family planning and post COVID perhaps young people are much more wary of starting/expanding families, perhaps people delayed child bearing for a while. Either way the drops in global fertility are quite immense.

I'm very sorry to hear about your situation. But one couple's difficult experience does not prove that infertility rates are rising (in like-for-like population comparisons). There have always been people who experienced infertility. I know that is no comfort, though.

It's not any comfort, no. Especially not for couples that are infertile or subfertile through, say, illness, ie childhood mumps decreasing sperm counts in men, varicocele in the testicles, irregular ovulation as a result of polycystic ovaries etc diseases such cancers of the reproductive systems, ovarian, testicular etc nevermind, eh? Plenty of sperm to go around, or something like that. Sorry, with my frustrations I am in no mood for studying the prospect of populations declining and nobody giving a crap about it, or worse, celebrating it.

The issue is people living longer. Perhaps we should go all Logans Run, at say 70? Drop the retirement age to 60. Work for 40 years. Relax for 10. Bye.