Help - Nanny driving me CRAZY!!

[Babyrooboo]

I would be grateful if anyone - especially other nannies - could give me some advice on how to deal with my nanny. I posted last week under a different name about our problem with her asking repeatedly about meeting up with her friends but there are a number of other issues which are becoming increasingly difficult to ignore. I am aware that I am now so furious with her that I am at risk of being a tad unreasonable . As I have decided that I will have to talk to her about how we feel next week, I feel that some perspective would be useful. She has now been working with us for 9 weeks but she has only been on her own with the children for the last 6. I have two DSs (3 and 1). The list of concerns are:

1. She does not live local to us and commutes about 40 minutes by car. Within the first 2 weeks she she asked on numerous occasions if she could meet up with her nanny friends who live local to her or have them come to my house. I said that I didn't want her to drive them all over the country, so last week she asked if she could take them to meet her friends by train. It would be a long train journey with at least one change. She hadn't even researched it - she asked me to pick her up a train timetable!
2. We are fortunate that we live in town and there is plenty to do but it would be useful if she could take them out on short trips. However, I am too scared to let her drive them around too much because it turns out that she has a speeding offence (as do I so not a big deal on it's own). However, when it came to putting her on our insurance she disclosed that she had made a huge claim on her insurance a few years ago following an accident that was her fault. Our insurance company wouldn't insure her at all. We agreed that she could use her car but I am not altogether comfortable with her driving them around.
3. She disclosed that she has a history of Attention Deficit Disorder which means that, as a child at least, she had serious lapses in concentration. This makes me nervous but I have not seen any evidence of not being able to fully concentrate on my children - yet.
4. She quickly got into a routine in which DS2 slept all morning in the buggy whilst DS1 was at preschool. DS2 would fall asleep on the way to preschool at 9am and she would quietly push him into the dining room on her return. When it was time to pick up DS1 at 12pm she would simply take DS1 out of the dining room still in buggy and head off for the preschool. Presumably he was still in the nappy that we put him in at 6am.
5. After such an exciting morning - both children were treated to a trip to the park (DS2 again in the buggy). This routine was the same all three days she works. No art, no new fun games, no age appropriate varied activities. The same routine every day. I had told her that there are lots and lots of groups in our town and that we were happy to pay for any classes. I even gave her a magazine with all of the local classes in it.
6. She asked for the password to our broadband internet so that she could use it on her iphone. As of yet we have seen no evidence for any work related research. I can only presume that she is using it solely for her own use. I don't mind of bit of this but it should also be used to research trips or activities.
7. One day in week 6 of employment she admitted that the kids had not had such a great day because she had forgotten to hand in her essay to college - her solution was to drive my children to her college to hand it in. A trip that took them all afternoon. She said that she was able to pacify DS1 with chocolate but DS2 was not very happy.
8. The next day she said that her commute had turned out to be more expensive than she imagined and could she have a pay rise. We said no - that it would be reviewed at the end of the year.
9. With the all the sleeping in the buggy DS2 started to refuse to have naps in his cot during his days with me. It transpired that she had never really tried to get him to sleep in his cot - I guess she figured that the buggy is so much easier.

At this I became aware of all of this I set a review. I concluded that she is fundamentally a nice girl who needed more direction. I said that DS2 needs to relearn how to sleep in his cot and children need a varied routine with lots of age appropriate activity. Also told her again to look into groups and activities that the children could go to and would give her the opportunity to meet friend for her self.

1. The next day DS2 was under the weather with a temperature. I decided to go to work but told her to take it easy and not worry to much about doing lots of things that day. Later that day I got a phone call from my neighbour saying that DS2 had been screaming for half an hour non-stop. Turns out she had used that day to reteach him how to fall asleep on his own. I told her that when a child is ill they will need to held a lot. I told her not to worry about it too much and because he was ill and now very distressed to hold and rock him until he is completely asleep and then put him in his cot.

10. She must still be doing this because now DS2 is now refusing to go into his cot awake. Last night I spent an hour trying to rock him to sleep. 10. I think that she lied to me about the children's afternoon naps the last day she was here this week. She managed to get both of them asleep at 2pm. She claims she woke them at 3pm. Neither child could fall asleep that night until after 9pm. This never happens so I think she let them sleep for a long time in the afternoon. 11. Despite the reminder about local groups, all she has managed to identify was a toddler group on the way back from DS1s nursery. She goes one morning a week. This is the only group/class that either of my children go to with her. As far as I am aware nothing is planned for half term. 12. She is not managing to engage DS1 who now says that he does not like her. It is hard to say how much of this is due to him not wanting me to leave. She has admitted that she finds it difficult to motivate him and he often says no to the activities that she suggests. I told her that she needs to set up the activities and make them appear exciting. She says this has helped. 13. I am sure that she thinks that I am a killjoy because all of the activities she has suggested I have said no to. She wanted to take them both swimming once a week. I wouldn't even dream of taking them both swimming on my own. Trips really far away from our home. Why can't she find anything local to do? 14. DS1s eating has taken a setback. He is a fussy eater anyway. I found out that she was offering him lots of options to get him to eat. One day she gave him sweetened popcorn instead of a meal "to make sure he had something to eat". He now tried to negotiate with us at mealtimes and often refuses whole meals.

I am trying to hold onto my belief that she is a nice person but every now and again I think that she is just taking the piss. I don't want to fire her before we have a really good go at working it out. However, I really don't think that she knows what she is doing and much of the time it really feels like babysitting and nothing more. Am I unreasonable to expect more from a nanny? I feel like I will need to do all of the planning for her and teach her about really basic childcare such as the need to teach children how to fall asleep on their own and how to motivate a 3 year old.

I am sorry that this is so long but I am at the end of my tether. I plan to talk to her next week and need some help.

Thank you all so much for your messages. Mumsnet is so fantastic. I have been checking them throughout the day and talking to DH about how we are going to manage this situation. However,it has been such a stressful and busy day - mostly because DS2s sleep routine is all over the place - that I haven't had a chance to reply to any.

A few of you asked questions about the nanny - she is 26, we found her through an agency, she had good written references, she has had two nannying jobs before and nursery experience. On paper and in interview she was great.

We had a three week overlap in which she basically observed what I did with the children. I also explained very clearly why we did things certain ways and we open to discussion. We appeared to have similar ideas about being clear and having firm boundaries with the children.

Thank you so much to those who gave examples of activities they do with their children. If she did even quarter of them then we wouldn't be in this position. I have no problem with activities being routine and repetitive so long as something is happening. I will give her some ideas off your lists. Even going to the local library or feeding the ducks would be something.

Although we would love to sack her and start again, we don't feel that we can. Employment law states that we have to give her an opportunity to sort herself out and I don't really want to treat her unfairly anyway. So, I will meet with her on Tuesday and attempt to have an honest discussion with her. We will have our concerns written in a letter so that she has something to look at and take away. I think that she basically needs more support with establishing a sleep routine and accessing the groups that the local area has to offer. I think that she is also partly taking the piss and we will have to call her on that.

Faerie07 - it is nice to see you again on this post and I was pleased to hear that your nanny is better in some areas. I still 100% support your decision to not agree to the trip to the beach. I guess that the other nannies who have posted here are more trustworthy. However, when you suspect that they are only going there to meet friends then of course you are going to say no.

I am sorry if this causes offence but I find it really hard to accept that some nannies think that they have the right to do what ever they want with someone else's children. It is fine if you have built up a trusting relationship and the employer trusts the nanny to make good judgements. However, I have not had a chance to do so. Furthermore, everytime she makes requests to meet her friends when she has never once even taken them to feed the ducks or to the library or even a short train journey to the next town then I trust her less. Not one of her suggestions so far appears to meet my children's needs before her own. If she had asked me about the long train trip a few months into the post after building up some trust then I might have responded differently. I also cannot understand why people think that I should allow her to bring her friends to my house. After all, I don't ask if I can bring my friends into my workplace. How exactly does it benefit my children to have her friends and their charges round to his house? What if he doesn't get on with the children they bring. What if it is some older child who domineers over him? Where do I stand if something is stolen from my house or if a child has an accident. I do not feel that I can trust the nanny to manage any of these possibilities.

colditz - there have been lots of people on this post who have not seen my point of view or said that IABU. I have no problem with that whatsoever. However, I found your post to be particularly offensive and perhaps, for some reason, you intended it to be so. I am far from fickle or passive about the childcare I want for my children. Although my eldest DS is only 3.5 I am an experienced child clinical psychologist and I know a great deal about child development and behaviour. Therefore, I do not need you to tell me that children sometimes sleep too long or that they sometimes change their sleeping habits, or that they sometimes "manipulate" their parents. My children were doing very well with regards to their sleep, eating and behaviour before I returned to work. However, as I psychologist - and I hope a reasonable person - I am aware that other people might do different things to achieve the same result. What you have interpreted as lack of clarity with the nanny was in fact me giving her to space to do things her way. I presumed - because she told me - that she knew what she was doing. But COME ON Colditz, within 3 weeks of being with her DS2 could only fall asleep in his buggy. This has made life impossible for us. I am now spending hours everyday rocking him to sleep and DS1 is being left alone. It is not good enough. And she does NOTHING with them.

Sorry if there are spelling mistakes in this. I need to go to bed.

Gotcha

Maybe as you work from home you get more control/say then other mb's do as you see what is going on

what would it take for you to trust your nanny to go out for the whole day? ESP as summer is coming up and nice to go out to the park/zoo/beach

but in the end it does come down to trust and as both your and op nanny haven't been with you for long they need to gain your trust and confidence - tho assume you must have had some faith in them or wouldn't have employed them in the first place iyswim

I don't think you can 100% blame your nanny for ds2 bad sleep

She is there 3 days and you 4 days

if you rock him 4 days he will expect and need it the other 3 days which makes the nannys job much harder in trying to get him to sleep alone in his cot

think you both need to sit down together and discuss routines/sleep/food and how to overcome these problems with both of you doing the same

I would be happy for her to do an all day trip now, but I would want it to be more local (say 20 minute train trip), and certainly not on a very hot day.

She has done trips that last about 4 hours but none any longer than that. The all day trips have been with me in the car.

But I wouldn't want to hear about needing to leave 'extra early' and being back home later than normal finishing time. (Her 'all day' trip sounded like needing to leave before 8.00 am and not getting home until well after 5.00 pm.).

TBH there is only 1 day where she could do those trips as DS1 does 2 half days at nursery.

Babyrooboo - Sorry to hear it is getting worse for you. If you need to chat away from here drop me an email on faerieprincess @ bt internet. com (without the spaces).

Did you actually check her references yourself?

It sounds to me that if you want to keep her, you need to spell out really clearly what you want from her. It does not sound like it's going to be the kind of nanny -employer relationship where you trust her to just get on with things.

Write her a timetable of activities to take the children too, meal plan with her, give her a daily timetable of when and where you want the children to sleep.

Are you in a probation period at the moment? I believe in the first year of employment you can terminate employment if it's not working out just by giving her notice.

Also, I think most experienced nannies go into a new job expecting to be able to organise their day themselves, and make day to day decisions about the children. Most nanny employers expect an experienced nanny to be able to use their initiative and get on with things without constantly referring back to them. That's not the same as "some nannies think that they have the right to do what ever they want with someone else's children."

Babyroo, by all means go through the proper sacking procedures.

She is taking the piss, wants an easy job and probably lying to you about what goes on behind your back. Your dcs are not old enough to snitch on her. When I got suspicious after a few weeks, I got my 6 year old to tell me what was going on.

The best case scenario is she can improve. But she needs a serious reality check before she will be willing to do that. That means she needs to be sacked first. It won't be on your job that she improves.

Don't waste your time.

I am a nanny and I dont think I have the right to do whatever I want with other peoples children.I do think I have the right to do my job though.
I very much want to work with parents and at the end of the day I will always respect what the parent wants.
But I also enjoy the day trip aspect-showing the children new things etc.Though when I do a day trip I do it for the childrens benefit not so I can meet my friends.But I probably wouldnt take a job where the parents were going to restrict things too much-not because I think I have the right to do what I want but because I realise that I am not the type of nanny the family want and its not the type of job i would enjoy.I do spend alot of time at home painting/baking etc plus I think its important that children learn to entertain themselves but I also think day trips etc are a valuable for children.Though I work 5 days a wk so think has a bit different
I do need to feel I am trusted though.I dont tend to ask permission either though I do write down plans on a wall calendar so the parents can see what we have planned there.
The reason people mentioned her friends and charges coming to you is because they came up with a compromise.Your son would probably enjoy it.As long as your nanny was able to keep and eye and if any of the kids dont get on she will know not to invite them next time.
Your nanny does seem a bit clueless tbh and maybe thats adding to your nervousness about them going places.She should know what to do with a ill child.

You have given her a verbal warning for not doing her job, the next stage is a written one with a targeted review and then if she doesn't show significant improvement she should go. That way you also protect yourself if someone calls for a reference.

She has had ample opportunity to improve and she hasn't. In some ways it reads as though she isn't willing to put in the time gaining your trust to get what she wants back.

Long day trips aren't the issue, are they? The issue is you don't feel she's making an effort, you doubt her motivation and you don't trust her. Then there are communcation problems adding to the mix...

Maybe you've mishandled it from her POV and she feels micromanged/unable to show initiative if she's used to being in charge of her day/put and about but tbh a good nanny with any common sense and an ounce of maturity would work out that you feel a bit nervous, aren't ready for what she's asking and need her to work within certain boundaries at first. I agree that experienced nannies can, and do expect to, 'get on with it', usually without the 3 weeks of handover! During that handover what did you do? Did she get to see the local area/groups? Did you make your expectations of what she was to do clear?

I am sorry if this causes offence but I find it really hard to accept that some nannies think that they have the right to do what ever they want with someone else's children **

I am not saying I have the right to do this but I know my boss would be rather bored if I asked her everytime we wanted to do something or if I texted/called her during the day to ask if we could go to the beach because it was a rather warm day and all our friends were going, or would it be ok if we went out on a train ride.

I do speak with my employer each evening for up to an hour regarding what we have done that day and any plans we might have in the offing but I have just bought tickets to a big day out in the local area (20 minute train ride there) and haven't discussed it with her yet - as 1) she was away for the week and non contactable 2) the tickets sold out in less than 3 hours 3) because I know that my 2 year old will love the whole adventure. It is on the calendar, in the work diary and there are a couple of post it-ss on the notice board to remind me about it - but I will prob tell her next week sometime.

I love nannying and my boss obviously has total say about any activities we do - she can ask me to change activities and I would but she knows that if I am spending 60 hours a week and sometimes more with him that I know what he will like/enjoy and therefore it's up to me what we do in the time I have him, however if my job was micro-managed - then I probably would leave.

I also cannot understand why people think that I should allow her to bring her friends to my house. After all, I don't ask if I can bring my friends into my workplace. How exactly does it benefit my children to have her friends and their charges round to his house? What if he doesn't get on with the children they bring. What if it is some older child who domineers over him? Where do I stand if something is stolen from my house or if a child has an accident. I do not feel that I can trust the nanny to manage any of these possibilities

If your nanny has friends or knows nannies with children that are the same age as your sons it can be nice to meet up whether this is out and about or at one anothers homes. I tend to have a playdate at my work house twice a month and go to other peoples homes 3/4 times a month. It can be a unique opportunity to help your child with socialisation as where they know outside the home they have to hare toys they also learn to share their own toys [not saying yours need to learn this - but mine does] it also helps to form friendships for your child in a way that nursery or toddler groups can't as the children do have to play together rather than them separating and going to play with other toys in other space available.

As a parent you can decide for her not to do playdates at your home this your perogative - I know a couple of nannies whose bosses also do this however the points you raise ie what happens if there is an accident, what if the children don't get on, what if someone steals something ; the main answer to this is you have to trust your nanny.

TBH I can't really understand why you are keeping the nanny on if you don't trust her - it must be a hard situation for her to be in - working for a boss who doesn't trust her and I wouldn't want to be in that position. Also why are you leaving your children with her - if I didn't trust someone with my charge I wouldn't spend time with them - and he's not even my child.

Babyrooboo, did you actually speak to the referees? My experience is that good written references sometmes come unstuck quite dramatically on the phone (ie the fomrer employer says all the negative things she left out of the reference). Might help with the next nanny, I guess. I still think this nanny is unlikely to improve to a level where you should be retaining her.

Babyroo, agree about talking to referees over the phone. Always ask the question at the end: 'if your circumstances were the same, would you hire her again?". Expect no hesitation before the glowing reply.

Anything else is a red flag.

I also prefer to talk to mummybosses rather than the daddyboss. IME, women are more straight down the line. Twice I spoke to a db and they gave no hint of problems but the situation was less than ideal. Could just be my bad luck though.

"I am sorry if this causes offence but I find it really hard to accept that some nannies think that they have the right to do what ever they want with someone else's children"

If you want to micro manage your nanny then that is entirely up to you. You are the boss so you have ultimate say in what happens.

However having a nanny is meant to make your life easier, so if you are constantly having to micro manage, direct them to do suitable activities, approve every outing, then is that making your life easier?

Nannies don't have a right to do whatever they want with someone else's children... they should however in my view be able to use their initiative and do what they feel is right for the children in their care.

The key is the relationship between the parents and the nanny. There is a bond of trust in that relationship.

I cannot imagine any boss would want to micromanage their nanny. It would do my head in.

All the boss has to do is to specify the ground rules. Suggest what the nanny could do, local activities. Keep lines of communication open especially the first few weeks.

A good nanny will be able to pick up cues from the above and fill in the blanks for others. She should also be asking questions if unclear.

The minute it goes beyond the above to micromanagement, it is not a good sign. I find mm, leads to more mm, because distrust has already set in. It is a slippery slope after that.

get rid of her, she sounds awful.

both my boss's are very busy at work and run their own companys and although i can get hold of them anytime (either mob/email or work phone) they would laugh at me if i asked to do something like walj/beach/zoo etc

basically it comes down to TRUST my mb/db employ me to make their life easier and they KNOW that i will do everything best in my judgement for their children

the only thing i know mb would hate me to do is take for a macdonalds so we go to pizza/zizis etc instead

us nannys are not mind readers so if there is something you dont like (strix and white bread/choc spread) then tell them - if not the nanny will do what they think is best with their years of expierence of the job

Nannynick I really really do not want to micromanage the nanny. She is our first nanny but we had imagined, and not unreasonably by the look of these posts, that she would use her own initiative and just get on with it. After all it is what we are paying her for and it annoys me no end to think that I have do her job for her. You and lots of others are right, it simply comes down to trust. Her approach has just given us the impression that she wants this job to fit around her life. I don't mind some of that - I had no problem with her going into town with the children to get a card for her Dad for instance. But, it is like her priorities always come first. If I felt that I had a half decent nanny, I would happily let her get on with it and be grateful that my kids were being well looked after by someone who really cared about them.

blueshoes blouseenthusiast We have learned so much from this experience. Next time we will follow up a written reference with a phonecall.

Lifeinagoldfishbowl we feel that we have to give her a fair chance, mainly due to employment law.

For the record - I would be absolutely fine with her meeting her friends and maybe even come around to the house if the nannies and children lived in this area or anywhere near for that matter and if the children were of similar age to mine. Otherwise I do not see how it would benefit my children.

faerie07 Thanks again. I will be in touch.

Babyroo, you have got nothing to lose to enter the nanny market again.

The difference between a good and bad nanny is like night and day. You won't be writing anything like your first post. You will wonder why you ever put up with it for so long. You will wonder how you ever lived before she came into your lives.

The advice I hold in my head after multiple so-so experiences to finding a good nanny is ... it is not how good you are at hiring, it is how good you are at firing.

Keep plugging away. It will happen.

Enough has been said about where the issues really are and what is right or wrong so I won't comment on that.

If I were in this position I would follow up the references by phone now, perhaps fibbing and saying that she was coming to the end of a trial period and you were now wanting to follow up the references. Use the info to decide if you can turn it round or not.

Failing that, if it is really not working then 'Employment law' doesn't actually mean that you have to go through written warning, chance to improve etc, etc. Anyone in their first year can be fired for any reason whatsoever (so long as non-discriminatory). You will need to cover holiday pay and notice period but that's all. Personally I would feel very guilty if I had not given them a fair chance before doing this, so make sure you are comfortable in your decisions.

I have absolutely no idea why you took offense at my post and can only conclude that I struck a nerve.

As an experienced child psychologist, perhaps you should consider changing you child's sleeping habits yourself and NOT rocking him to sleep every day, as I don't know anyone else who feels the need to do this, experienced child psychologist or not.

Babyroo, I would not worry about sleep.

My dcs 6 and 3, who have always been tricky with sleep, still co-sleep with me, from babies. But at nursery, they slept like all the other children. There was an initial adjustment period, the lovely carers would rock my ds and even hold him for the full hour. But eventually, within a month, he let them put him down without crying. Then he was fine with occasional shushing.

They do things for nannies and carers they don't do for their mummies at home. Whatever works.

Colditz - you must know that what a child gets used to with another carer does impact on the family. When my DS was at nursery they used to pat him to sleep and it became very difficult for him to go to sleep without being patted off to sleep for his daytime naps, and he was only there for 2 days a week! I eventually broke the habit, but it took awhile and was quite stressful.

So if Babyrooboo's nanny is rocking the baby to sleep and never letting them go to sleep on their own, the baby will be more difficult for babyrooboo to get to sleep.

I had suggested to my nanny that when DS2 was poorly that she rocked him to sleep that day as he needed extra TLC. If she then decided to continue rocking him to sleep even when he was better because 'that was what I had asked her to do' even when he wasn't poorly I would take a dim view of it.

Following an instruction to the extreme and leaving common sense at the front door makes for an awful employee!

Colditz you will be pleased to hear that I have spent most of my bank holiday weekend sleep training DS2 and tonight he went to sleep without difficulty. This is not the first weekend I have had to re-sleep train him although this was the worst by far. I am now finding that I have to get him out of the habit of being rocked to sleep every weekend only to find that he has slipped into it again the following weekend. As you may or may not be aware sleep training a child is a very upsetting process for both child and mother and it gets harder the older they are. This is why I gradually encouraged both my children to learn how to sleep from birth - as most mothers are told to do! I never wanted to be in the position of sleeping training an older child because from my clinical experience I know how awful it is. Poor DS2 is confused and upset by the changes in expectations for him. I now have to train the nanny NOT to rock him to sleep or only to allow him to sleep in the buggy. I don't mind buggy sleep once a day but not all the time.

glad you managed to retrain ds2 to sleep alone

have a stern word with nanny and say she MUST not rock him, tbh im suprised she does - most nannies dont want to get into bad habbits of rocking

and sure within a few days he will settle for her,he is prob used to being rocked and thinks right rock time and yells

you both need to be consistant in your approach (tho sounds as if you are trying to be)

hope you manage to have a chat on tuesday, also worth chatting to the agency, you paid a huge fee (no doubt) for her, so tell them you are not 100% happy and explain your concerns

if you really are not happy then yes you can sack your nanny, and just pay her off

my friend lost her job last week, had been there 4 mths, has no idea why she lost her job, parents just rang her and said they dont need her anymore and paid her 4weeks salary and gave her a ref and said dont come in on tuesday

so if you do let your nanny go,then least explain to her

you said she has fab refs so maybe she can be a good nanny - why did she leave the other 2 jobs - so worth a chat and say if things dont improve then you may need to rethink her position