just had a v bad conversation with my nanny

[nowwearefour]

we have a nanny one day a week. she is great, we love her. due to the snowy conditions we have given her 2 fridays off as 'snow days'. she has not offered to take those as holiday or to come in on a different day in lieu, she has simply expected that we will just pay her. that has been fine as my employer and my dh's have given us a day off each to stay at home with dds. we both need to be in work this week when she is due to work. i just made a call to say that if she cant make it then we will need to pay a childminder friend of ours to have the dds so we can go in. she said 'then i will take it a holiday'. i said 'but we cant afford to pay you and pay her and we have already given you 2 extra days off'. she said 'you cant just not pay me'. i said 'well actually i think i can'. anyway in her christmas card is a week's wages as a bonus so she'll be getting that which is in effect her salary for that week anyway. from threads i have read and dicussions i have listened to i believe i can just 'not pay her'. is this right and surely i would then just not give her the bonus (which she knows about) which is tantamount to teh same thing anyway? things are now v v awkward and i cant think she can expect me to just keep on paying her when she doenst come in? we have to trudge nearly 2 miles in the snow to the station and wait around for hours etc to get in. any one got any thoughts?

Think this has been handled badly from the off TBH. Call her up to review it, ask her to clarify if she wants these snow days as paid holidays or not. There is your answer. For all 3 of them not picking and choosing as each one crops up. Then review it and write it on your contracts.

What is the trouble with her getting to you? Is it quite a way for her to come?

I am not surprised things feel awkward it all comes across as a bit hufffy TBH.

TBH i think she was quite unreasonable to expect to be paid for any of the days. if YOU cancelled her services for the day then she could expect a wage but to call up 2 weeks running with a potential third week and expect to be fully paid for not doing her job is a tad ridiculous IMO i would say that as her employer you have every right to expect her to come in to work and if she is paid but not in it should be classed as an emergency holiday and it should be taken out of her entitlement. that is how it works for 90% of employees, i certainly does in my place of work! it is up to you whether she gets paid or gets given the bonus but you definitely need to sit down with her and make it clear that this isnt acceptable behaviour IYHO and discuss the expectations for the future as it does sound as if they were not exactly clear in the beginning.

aSilver- thanks for your post. i am v keen to know in what way i have handled it badly from the beginning. it should have been in the contract, but this just wasnt foreseen (and i dont think i am the only one to have been caught out by this). each of the last 2 times have been rather last minute cancellations so we havent had time to 'negotiate' as dh and i have had to discuss options with each other and our own bosses etc. so this time i thought i would set it out clearly in advance just to avoid any confusion on the day (so she can make plans etc). we have let a few other things slide to keep the peace but we cant just let her expect us to keep on paying- she thinks we have a limitless amount of money but in actual fact we struggle a lot to be able to afford her. you think i should call her back i did try to explain my reasons to her and did say that i didnt want things to be awkward between us but the fact is that she has huge money issues so therefore is particularly sensitive about this subject. i suspect she has already spent (by which i mean mentally allocated) the bonus as well as the monthyl salary and it seems mean not to give it to her when we were trying to be generous (giving her this meant no christmas presents between dh and me). we try to do unto her as we are done unto by our employer - surely she can expect no more than this. yes she lives a few miles away and the snow has been v bad in our areas. i just want to make it right if i am in the wrong but i would like to know how i am in the wrong so i can make it right!

by the way the conversation didnt run exactly as i had written it- it was more friendly but the essence is what i have put down in my post.

and she only has 1 holiday day left this year. i am happy for her to still have that but the issue is that we cant afford to pay her and another childcarer for that day. and if we dont go in, we dont get paid.

I am a mum and a nanny and no way would i expect to get 3 weeks paid off because of the weather, i have left 3 hours before i start my job to make sure i get there granted yes there are times it is not possible but 3 weeks is not on imo. You need to be clear about what you expect from her and have this in her contract so in future she knows what will happen and it will avoid this situation. Have a good chat and explain your situation and i hope you come tol an agreement.

exactly nowwearefour if YOU dont go to work you DONT get paid. same should apply to her. it shouldnt be a big song and dance for her to get to work for one day especially if you are able to travel to work yourself.

thanks mo3g. that is the sort of thing we expected too- we have said it doesnt matter if she is a bit late or needs to leave a bit early. but we do all sorts of things to get into work. she works for anoher family who let her get away with too much so i look like the meanie! and agreed need to explicitly state what we expect in future. there are bound to be other situations, i am sure of it that i havent rhought of so just ened something like eg up to 2 days off a year for emergencies, beyond that nothing is paid.

So you've given her two days off when you can't get in? Are you paid by your employer when you can't get in for snow? I'm sure you are - so why shouldn't she be paid?

If she can't get in on Friday, then it has to be a snow day for her - so again, why shouldn't she be paid? It isn't her fault if she can't get in, just like it wouldn't be your fault if you can't get in. Suggesting that you're not going to pay her for it is wrong - and very mean.

If she can't get in, then you will have to find alternative childcare - or take a day off yourself.

Talking about taking it from her Christmas bonus (which surely you've already paid her anyway?) is just mean.

It sounds like you need to work on a better back up plan for emergency childcare.

And I'm not surprised that things are difficult if this is how you expect to treat her!

the issue is though she has expectations and is now upset with me which doesnt make for a good relationship. and we strive so hard to achieve that - the downside of having a nanny i guess....

If you're not paid by your employer, or if the general rule of thumb is not to pay, then obviously you're not mean!

As an employer it wouldn't cross my mind to not pay people who couldn't get in because of snow.

becausei'mworthit- we have always been able to get into work. this is the third time our nanny wouldnt be able to get to u. of course if we couldnt goto work and therefore didnt need her, we would pay her anyway. that is not the case. the issue is that twice already we have given her a snow day (despite needing to go in and being able to get in ourselves) and this would be her third- at this point dh and i have used up our snow days and so one of us would not get paid or we woud need to pay another childminder.

if the bonus is now going to be treated as her wages, it is not a bonus is it?

i think where things fall sdown is expectations and presumptions

you seem miffed she has not worked a day in lieu or taken the days as holidays, but you gave her them off as snow days

instead of snow days, perhaps you should have encouraged her to come in a different day or stay over with you or start later if you still had to go to work yourselves

it is just that she hasnt tried to eg get the train or offer to do another day instead or take it as holiday. but i think people are saying we should have said something on those days at a minimum which is prob true and the reason she is cross now is that it is rather coming out of the blue. but that is why i mentioned it in advance.

i think it is unfair to offer someone a snow day off and then complain they did not try to get in to work

how old is your nanny, where does she live in relation to you and how bad is the snow?

but we did try to encourage her to come in. i havent said the bonus isnt going to be paid. i am trying to gauge views on what is reasonable. i think that if she doesnt turn up this week and we give her the bonus then it is still a bonus but she wont be paid for the 3rd day she isnt turning up. we didnt ring her and tell her not to come in on the other days, she couldnt make it to us so we had to make other arrangement. agreed i didnt ask her to come in on other days instead- i should have at the time but only tohught about itafterwards as it was so stressful on the actual days.

it wasnt that we offered her a snow day. she took two. we did try to aks whether there were any alternatives eg train, coming in for a shorter part of the day so we could at least get in for a part of the day to the office but she was not willing to consider any other means of getting to us. she lives approx 8 miles away. nothing has been said about money or holiday or anything. the snow has been v bad. but we have been able to walk to/from the station. so i thought that ahead of this fri i would do the right thing and clarify our expectations.

our nanny is 34 tomorrow. (which is why i called her today).

I think it's mean to call the OP "mean" when you haven't even read the posts. There are all sorts of subtleties about snow days. I don't think it's fair to attack someone based on a few lines.

Anyway OP - For what it's worth, I think you've been very understanding and fair, but I do think you needed to manage expectations on the first two occasions, not just quietly note that she had not offered other options to you. She probably had no idea you were not going to continue your practice of paying despite absence, and no one likes surprises.

Seems to me you have an issue of whether nanny is trying as hard as you are to get into work, is that right?

yes that is prob part of the issue- or at least after 2 days off we expect extra measures for the future as it impacts on us quite a lot. thanks greybird. i can see now we were foolishh to not say anything on the first 2 occaions

This is exactly the kind of circumstance that you need to have in your contract - not necessarily about snow, but what happens on a day when she can't - for any reason - get to you.

And you did say in your OP that you gave her the days off, which is why some of us are saying that it appears to be a bit mean to then withhold her pay.

From my years of employing a nanny, my advice to you would be to be as generous as you possibly can. On the first two occasions I would have paid her. Eight miles in snow/ice is a long way, so I'm not surprised she was reluctant to come in. But all was OK because you were given the time off by your employer. (Were you paid?)

On the third occasion you were right to try and pre-empt the situation, but you should have had other plans in place. An alternative childminder is great, but obviously will cost you more. Unfortunately, this is one of the problems about being full time working parents! Could you not take time off work at all? I thought there was more flexibility these days from employers in terms of time needed to look after children when there are problems?

But you will really, really piss her off if you start to talk about withholding part of her bonus. As Lulu says, this is money that was supposed to be rewarding good performance and your thanks - not part of her salary.

And I still don't understand why if it's a Christmas bonus, you haven't paid it yet!

i think you have to make it clear exactly what is acceptable from her end.. and not even trying to get in to work is not on and that would be irritating to say the least

For the future, I think you need to have something written into your nanny's contract about what will happen if she can't get in to work because of unforeseen circumstances (snow, transport strike, domestic emergency etc) and, crucially, whether such time off will be paid or unpaid. Most employers, I think, expect staff to struggle in through the snow and, if they can't, to take the day as annual leave or flexi-leave. Mine certainly doesn't give paid 'snow days'. I think you also need to be clearer about how much effort you expect her to make on days when travel is difficult because of the weather.

As for the days already taken, then as others have said it seems rather harsh retrospectively to make the two days already taken holiday if you had previously given her the impression that they were 'snow days' (and harsher still if your employer gave you a snow day but you are unwilling to give the same leeway to your nanny, but that's for you to judge). For this week, I don't see why it's such a problem if the nanny takes Friday as one day of her holiday - she'll take the holiday sooner or later so once it's gone it's gone, surely?

greybird - I did read the OP! That was my opinion.

Then I read posts that had been made while I was writing mine, and reconsidered that criticism, on the basis that if the OPs employers weren't paying her and/or if it is current practice not to pay people who have a snow day, then it was different and she wasn't being mean.

the issue with this week is that whilst i dont necessarily want to retrospectively make her take holiday i simply cannot afford to pay her and an alternative child carer / take a day off unpaid. i and dh have used up our holiday entitlement until end march so we can take unpaid leave only- we get 1 snow day each for which we were paid and which we have both taken. i do only work 2 days per week and could swap my days but by the time you get to friday the week is gone and so no opportunity to swap iyswim. christmas bonus is cash and in christmas card (not willing to post) which we were to give her on 18th dec but she didnt come in due to snow. then we were snowed in for a week. then christmas. then i offered to drop it to her house, she said not to and she would come to collect. she didnt. then nyday then snow day. so that is why she doesnt have her christmas bonus yet.