just had a v bad conversation with my nanny

[nowwearefour]

we have a nanny one day a week. she is great, we love her. due to the snowy conditions we have given her 2 fridays off as 'snow days'. she has not offered to take those as holiday or to come in on a different day in lieu, she has simply expected that we will just pay her. that has been fine as my employer and my dh's have given us a day off each to stay at home with dds. we both need to be in work this week when she is due to work. i just made a call to say that if she cant make it then we will need to pay a childminder friend of ours to have the dds so we can go in. she said 'then i will take it a holiday'. i said 'but we cant afford to pay you and pay her and we have already given you 2 extra days off'. she said 'you cant just not pay me'. i said 'well actually i think i can'. anyway in her christmas card is a week's wages as a bonus so she'll be getting that which is in effect her salary for that week anyway. from threads i have read and dicussions i have listened to i believe i can just 'not pay her'. is this right and surely i would then just not give her the bonus (which she knows about) which is tantamount to teh same thing anyway? things are now v v awkward and i cant think she can expect me to just keep on paying her when she doenst come in? we have to trudge nearly 2 miles in the snow to the station and wait around for hours etc to get in. any one got any thoughts?

i am happy for my nanny to still take her day off before the end of march (my MIL covers nanny holiday but she herslef is on hols this week).

BIWI - It's just that I was surprised that in your first post you were "sure" that OP was paid on snow days and based on that assumption you called her "mean". Are you so confident taht employees are always paid on snow days? I have no idea, myself. I believe there is no legal requirement to pay. That's where the subtlety is.

And is it really something you can specify in your contract as paid or unpaid, black and white? Surely it would probably be "discretionary", like sick pay?

OP - I understand your frustration (and financial concerns) but if your nanny has a holiday entitlement isn't there always a risk that you'll have, in effect, to pay twice by arranging alternative cover for days she's on holiday? I see the problem but surely it's one that could crop up at other times of year too and which (I'm guessing) you factored into your decisions about childcare.

And I take your point about Friday being the last day of the week, but would your employer be content for you to work a third day next week to offset taking Friday off (if it came to that)?

our employer has this snow season decided 1 day paid each off seems fair.

madbad- x posts i think. my MIL covers nanny hols which usually are given with some notice. MIL on hols this week so cant cover for us. and we have this back up friend who is ofsted registered with spaces on fridays so that is always fine but it costs money we dont have. employer prob would accept 3 dys next week, yes- i could do that. i dont like leaving my dds for 3 days in a week (which is why i work 2 days) but i could have that flexiubility. maybe i will suggest that to her.

and the issue is that this particular week both dh and i have v important meetings we need to be at on friday. i have a monthly meeting which i arrange and my hwole job is base around and there is no flexibility on that particular day- it happens to be this friday.

Nowwearefour - I sympathise, I really do, but something I have discovered recently when my own childcare arrangements collapsed in the snow is that sometimes one ends up having effectively to pay twice. Annoying but unavoidable. I think you are taking a big gamble if you are banking on your MIL always being available to provide free childcare if your nanny's unavailable.

As I said before, I think you as the employer can adopt whatever policy you like (within reason) towards snow days/leave for other emergencies, but it's the retrospective change here which troubles me - especially if you are otherwise happy with your nanny and don't want to jeopardise the working relationship.

thanks. it i appreciat your advice, madbad. i guess i do want to avoid jeopardising the relationship and i fear i already have. but i also fear that on this occasion it may be a luxury i simply cant afford. i rather suspect she will be here anyway.....

I spent 10 year being a nanny for different families before i had my own children.

And on my last job it was in my contrct how many days i got for emergencies that covered think like snow.

While i worked for them my car was stolen and she offered to come and pick me up it was 10 miles away is this a possibility ?
She did this for 1st week after my car was stolen and I managed to borrow a car after that.

interesting idea emmaruth. it might be a possibility on friday, good idea.

your nanny should make an effort to get in, i did and im about 6miles away from my work

i did get stuck,did 180 slide down hill and eventually abandened my car mile from work and got picked up , but i made it in and mb worked from home

if your nanny has holiday due then yes she should be able to take it as holiday and be paid, surely if she was away you would possibly have to pay for childcare, or does mil always cover?

agree you could go and pick her up if 8miles away - be interesting to see how much snow she has, ie is she pulling a fast one

why is her christmas bonus 3 weeks late?

I think you should say to her you need to start again.

Leave it that the 2 days she has already had stay as paid, normal days.

In future if she can't get in through no fault of her own she will be paid but it is expected that she work a different day of the week.

If you then can't work, and she doesn't do the alternate day, she doesn't get paid as you haven't been paid.

If she could get in and is being a bit of a pita about things she has it as holiday.

blondes- i explained about the bonus in a post above- basically because i havent seen her (despite offering to take it over to her) because of the snow

sorry i just read that

would you be happy to go and pick her up and take her home if it meant you could go to work?

i would certainly be happy to, if we could. we could def meet her at a station if the snow meant driving out at her end wsnt possible.

For what it is worth , the legal position is that by bot turning up, if she is not unwell, she is in breach of contract and does not , in my view need to be paid. BUT- particularly if there is no knock on effect for you, i.e yuo get paid, i would have thought it would be the rright thing to tell her that , whilst you are not obliged to pay her, you will,
As to the next day, i.e the 3rd Friday, if it does affect you, i think you can esxplain that it must be unpaid or holiday or day in lieu.

the trouble is, one tends not to have written contracts etc so when it gets messy noone really knows what to do and yuo want ot be nice as she is looking after the lids all day.
we had a nanny who knew the ropes, thought we were rolling in it cas we could afford her services and actaully took everyting yet gave no more than her contractual duties.
That's life

so she works on a friday and today is wednesday and she is saying she may not be in?

i would tell her you will pick her up 30mins before she needs to be at yours (or however takes long to get to yours roughly) so that she can be at yours for the right time you need to leave

hassle to you,but worth it if you get to work

i do wonder if the roads are THAT bad where she is .........

no to be fair she hasnt said she wont be in, she said she thinks she will be in. i just rang as we had had a fresh dumping to make sure we were all clear in advance what the situation was if she didnt make it in. i knew there was ambiguity over last 2 days so wanted to clear it up. i think she is reeal and would have made it in the last 2 times if she could have. the issue is that now it is getting a bit more serious for us.

but if it does snow again,and she doesnt get in then what?

you will pay her/SHE WILL TAKE IT AS HOLIDAY/NO PAY FOR HER

whoops hit caps,sorry

well the thing is i told her she wont get paid. so she wont get paid. i was posting on here to check out whether others thought i had done the wrong thing. we have paid her twice for not attending work, a third day when we have to pay for alternative childcare arrangements just isnt affordable for us.

Legal Rights on Taking A 'snow day' - found this article, thought it may be an interesting read.
According to the legal person who wrote it, an employer could let an employee choose to take the day as Annual Leave, Unpaid Leave.

The first two times she failed to turn up to work, when she contacted you, you agreed with her that on that specific occasion that you would pay the day... so it's Paid Authorised Leave. Is that right?

Now you are saying that if it happens this week (you don't know as yet if she will fail to get to work) then you will not be considering it as Paid Authorised Leave... instead you will either permit it to be Unpaid Leave, or let her take Annual Leave. Is that right?

Not sure how you having problems in paying for alternative care is her problem... if she has Annual Leave available to be taken and IF you agree that it can be taken, then this months payroll will include the day as paid. If she is aware of your difficulties in being able to pay, then she may say she would take the day as Unpaid Leave.

Her financial situation isn't your problem, I feel you are entitled to say that it can't be taken as annual leave. I don't believe that you have to authorise all annual leave requests... so you could refuse to let her take the day as annual leave... but permit it to be Unpaid Leave.

I travel 8 miles to work (normally - my snow route is 15 miles via Motorways as those tend to be clear of snow), I'm a similar age and my boss has been lovely about giving me shorter days when it's been possible to do so. I've got to be at work at 7am tomorrow, setting my alarm for 5am. I am intending to make every effort to be at work on time, as my boss needs me to take over at 7am. I have no issue with that... what actually happens tomorrow is what happens though, there are never any guarantees but my boss knows that I will make every effort - I hope the slush does not freeze! If I can't get in, then I would accept it as unpaid leave, or annual leave.

Not sure I can agree with those saying the OP is mean. At my work, if the site is closed, we get a snow day. If the site is open, and we can't get it, we are expected to take it as leave. Site closure is based on how dangerous it would be for staff to get in, so if it's deemed safe, we're open.

How can she say for sure she can't make it when it's days before the actual day she needs to work?

I think the OP has been more than fair, conditions aren't expected to be bad on Fri and she has every right to expect nanny to be there or not be paid/have to take leave.

Of course, if conditions are really bad on Fri, it would be fair for you to declare a 'site closed' day and allow her the day off, esp if you and DH can't get out to work.

thanks nannynick. very helpful. i would say no to an annual leave day, yes, as it leaves us in the dooby doobies a bit. unpaid leave is what we would need to take so taht is what she would have to have too. we didnt agree to pay her for those days but given we didnt say that we wouldnt, by default, we have agreed to pay her.
thanks annie. the trains have been running forthe whole time so it is unlikely we cant get in but clearly if for whatever reason we cant then she would, of course, be stood down.

I don't get paid 'snow days' they either come out of my remaining annual leave entitlement or they are unpaid.

Ok, I'm not a nanny, but my employer doesn't pay me just because I can't get in. It's not their responsibility to give me a free paid day off because of the weather.

I'd PMSL if they did as I work for the NHS, imagine the uproar if that hit the front page of the Daily Wail ?!

It has been hard getting to work, I know, it took me 3hrs 20mins to get to my workplace, 2.5 miles from home on Monday and 1hr 20m this morning but I got there. Last Weds I had to have the time off because of DD's school was closed and I couldn't afford to pay the childminder for a snow day so my day off had to come out of my annual leave entitlement. If I had no annual leave left then I would have had to have taken it as unpaid leave (although in that case I would have paid the childminder as I would have earned more at work than I would have paid out, but you see what I mean).

I do think that lots of employees are using this snow as an excuse to swing the lead, they certainly are at my place of work. Obviously there are people who are finding it genuinely hard to get to work and some cannot get in at all.

BTW, DH's company don't pay snow days either (private sector). It is not common practice as far I am aware

I don't think employees are entitled to choose their holidays. I believe the usual custom is that an employee requests a particular day and then the employer says yes or no. If the employer says no, then said employee is obligated to show for work. So, I think I would just decline the request for holiday on the basis that it is too short of notice to take holiday at my work.

I was particularly struck by the bit about the OP and her DH not giving each other Christmas presents in order to give the nanny a bonus. I would say this nanny does not bend over backwards for OP in the same way that OP does for the nanny.

It's bloody cheeky of the nanny to announce she will take it as holiday. And I think I would be tempted to tell her all of her snow days are holiday.

Nobody has a right to be paid for snow days unless it explicitly says they do in their contract.