Gah! So cross at CM - not sure what do next.....

[OrangeKnickers]

steam is coming out of my ears! (Sorry long).

So last year due to a 'miscommunication' our CM went away on holiday for a week, I found out about it the Friday before she went. It was a nightmare.

So this year she gives us a piece of paper with her holiday dates on. So we book our holiday around her dates, to make life easier.

I mention about our upcoming holiday - which starts next week assuming she's away as well. She says 'oh no, I am away on the xxth June'. I am like 'are you sure, I thought you were away when we were'. She says No she's away for two weeks starting the xxth.

So now not only have we bloody booked our holiday around her dates (would have booked it later in the year coz of the weather) BUT we also have to scrabble around to arrange childcare at short notice. We also pay her for four weeks holiday, and she needs to give us a month's notice of the holiday - which it works out that she has done now.

I am so cross! She's also recently put her prices up. And this has already happened to us once (she's been our CM for about a year).

What shall I do? She's good with our ds and is flexible and (usually!) reliable. I am sure it's an accident but it's so annoying. If was a purely commercial relationship I would part company from her following this but obviously ds is settled there.

Any thoughts would be gratefully received. Am I being unreasonable to be so cross?

I am shocked that people dont pay their CM's holidays
I have been paying mine 4 weeks a year, plus Bank holidays (she doesnt work them), plus she normally ends up with extra time off over xmas as me and dh are off.

Is this not right then? Or the norm? It is written into our contract but I didnt think anything of it

It all depends on what you have agreed at the time when you signed contracts Mosschops - But things are changing rapidly for CM's it seems to be two camps one charges for hols / bank hols etc the other doesn't. It is good practice for CM's to do a contract review I do the first review 6 months after initial contract then annually when I update contact / emergency contact details, this gives parents / carers ample opportunity to see if things are going well or if not happy with something contractual, their is nothing wrong of course with discussing this with CM's at any time we try to work as much as possible in partnership with parents so if you wanted to raise this issue you could.

I think most of you are missing the point. Childminders offer a service, which parents choose whether to use.So if they don't want to pay for holidays they should choose a childminder who doesn't charge. Like I said before, I would rather be employed, I HATE being self employed (and also having to beg for my fees!)

As I understand it, NCMA recommend that childminders should take at least 4 weeks holiday (for welfare reasons) and that we should stipulate this as paid leave in our contracts. As others have said, self employed businesspeople set their own terms and it is up them whether they follow the NCMA guidelines or not, and up to customers whether they agree to the terms offered,but many of the CMS I know are paid for at least some of their holidays and this doies appear to me to be the growing trend. But to put this into context, a lot of childminders make very little profit, many not even close to a statutory minimum wage, so can hardly be compared with a lot of tradespeople or professionals who may be charging ten or twenty times their hourly rate. I agree with what someone said in an earlier post, that it is really a question of whether I say I am charging you x for holiday pay, or whether I wrap it up in a higher hourly or daily rate. At the end of the day, it's also a marketing judgement to work out how customers/parents find the costs most acceptably presented. It's daft but some would baulk at paying an extra 10 p an hour but think nothing of paying for an extra week each year, or vice versa!

leo - if you feel this way why are you self employed? Are you a CM? Whatever you're doing you're not happy and if you are a CM not being happy cannot be good for the kids in your care.

Orangeknickers how have you got on with CM?

I genuinely prefer to pay my CM the same every week hols or not. Its just easier for us both to work out and remember to pay. She charges 3.50/hr whereas the last one I had charged 4.25/hr but we didn't pay her hols.
I really don't get why people are outraged about it- you will be paying one way or another!

Minderjinx - before the onslaught starts I appreciate we need childminders - but before accepting a job or going into something you should do your maths. I don't see that because there is little profit it is down to a parent to subsidise your choice, most parents out there are not making much after childcare costs. If you're SE then you're SE and the NCMA and their recommondations are just confusing matters and causing conflict.
If the grass is greener being an employed parent and paying childcare then cross over.

I used a childminder once, charged me £4 an hour but failed to issue me with a contract and in ignorance I didn't realise the importance of it having previously used a nursery. We had filled in all the incase of an accident/emergency and permission to go on outings on forms. I didn't think there would be any surprises in the contract. I then discovered than on top of paying in full for my child's holiday and sickness - which I totally understand and was in agreement with she expected full pay for her holiday and sickness. I think that is a complete liberty and refused to sign contract and stopped using her. £4 an hour as the top wack I expected to pay per hour hour in my area if it was more than that with holiday pay built in I still wouldn't agree as it eats into my wage.

I also hear the NCMA are encouraging childminders to charge for thei training days. Its an unworkable situation. Parents are generally maxed out on childcare costs, they don't have a slush fund to subsidise these things.

I am a CM and would never charge for my days off. It's really unfair on the parents when they have to pay someone else if you are unable to work.

Orange - any update?

Most training courses run in the evenings or at weekends, in my area anyway.

'Searching' - I am a parent who has been on both sides of the fence, and am now a cm. Seriously, you need to spend a day with a cm, see what we have to do, the paperwork we have to fill in, ask yourself 'crap, could I be bothered with all this', then come back and comment. CMs in general do a bloody good job for a hell of a lot less than the minimum wage after expenses, have to do more training than a lot of people in other jobs, are inspected by the 'powers that be' every three years - oh, and we do the majority of our paperwork and training outside our 'working hours' with no pay .

And don't even start to flame me for my comments. I became a cm because I wanted to spend time with ds - infact, if anything, have spent less quality time with him as a cm than I would have done as a SAHM. That's what I get for wanting my own income - little as it is . CMS ARE WAAAAYYYY undervalued.

ORANGE - sorry for hijacking your post

Lose the CM - you know it makes sense

Searching... I love being a childminder..I HATE being self employed. No sick pay, can't always choose when you want your hols ( and your way we wouldn't get paid either) But I can't be an employed childminder. What if your boss said 'next week I'm on holiday..I won't need you so have two weeks off, but you won't be getting paid'

I think the thing is if the parents take time off they should still pay, after all you are available for work. If you take time off they shouldn't pay as you're not providing a service.

wow! What a lot of posts - I feel very honoured. I won't feel embarrassed writing an essay.

Well we had the chat. Luckily it was a couple of days before we saw the CM so DH and I had a chance to calm down and realise that her relationship is ds is more important than the money. She had realised that something was up by my face on Tuesday. I think she was glad to sort it out. Basically we aren't going to pay her for her holidays. We'll still pay her half for our hols, but that's coz DH is a softie. I wanted to do half of half.

We'll also do the clever 'both sign' plan for holidays in future - thanks for the tip.

Poor cm - the reason it was such a muddle is that her partner booked her a 'cheap' holiday, not thinking about the dates. Now she's missing half a month's pay it won't be so cheap!

Regarding the other points, I guess we are happy to pay her hols as she's a good CM (just a bit clueless with dates). She was v cheap at first but isn't so cheap now. But I like ds being in a home environment and as she's a grandma she is very experienced. Not that you'd know it to look at her, it's quite depressing.

On the controversial of going away without ds, it's not anyone else's business what we do. I will say that we are also going away with him this year for a couple of weeks. Also I want to start TTC for ds2 so it's probably the only opportunity we'll have for a week alone for years. I can't wait for all that sun, sleep and sex.

I went to stay with my grandparents for a week when I was eight months old, and then regularly after that and it really build up our relationship. If you have that resource then use it! IM(h)O time together builds and strengthens your relationship and therefore is worth much more to your dcs in the long run than another boring week with you, when they could be living on kisses and ice cream at Grandma's.

thanks all for the support - mumsnet came up trumps again (plus the usual loons).

um re the paid holiday thing - the NCMA and Ofsted both encourage us to charge for some paid holiday per year usually between 2 and 4 weeks.

I charge 2 weeks paid holiday and I identify in advance which weeks those are going to be so parents know which they may wish to pay more attention to for their own leave.

The reason for this is that caring for children 10 hours a day 5 days a week 52 weeks of the year is extrememely difficult and whilst hugely rewarding it is exhausting. It is well known that taking time off makes for happier relationships all round and thats why the NCMA is a big believer of paid holls - many of us couldn't afford to take leave otherwise.

ramonaquimby - can I just point out that people pay their cleaner more than they are prepared to pay for their childcare provider so forgive us for wanting the occasional "perk" as tbh other than the adorable little people we get to spend our days with there aren't any others - certainly not financial anyway!!!

sorry I had to put in my five eggs even though you clearly sorted the issue.....

I'll get my coat..........

Glad you've got it sorted orangeknickers.

Have a lovely holiday and lots of sex

Agree with you about it being a good thing for children to have time at Grandma's and particularly loved this line;

"living on kisses and ice cream at Grandma's"

glad you had a chat ORANGE and all sorted

moral of the story - never let a man do anything by his self

have a lovely holiday away and have the 5 s's

sun,sea,sangaria,surf and of course sex

Glad it's all sorted.

Enjoy your hols, and couldn't agree more with you on that. A week away from the DC's never does anyone any harm.

"Minderjinx - before the onslaught starts I appreciate we need childminders - but before accepting a job or going into something you should do your maths. I don't see that because there is little profit it is down to a parent to subsidise your choice..."

Searching, I have no idea why you chose to be so gratuitously offensive. I have done my maths...I don't have a problem with that. All was saying is that it makes no real diference at the end of the day whether a CM charges specifically and transparently for holiday pay or charges a rate which allows him/her to have "no charge" for holidays. I certainly don't have any parents "subsidising" my choice of career - I charge the going rate, which is low enough to allow all of my parents to work and still make a reasonable surplus, otherwise they wouldn't bother. If anything I'm subsidising their choice of career!

Be that as it may, I'm pleased you got your situation sorted out OrangeKnickers.