Gah! So cross at CM - not sure what do next.....

[OrangeKnickers]

steam is coming out of my ears! (Sorry long).

So last year due to a 'miscommunication' our CM went away on holiday for a week, I found out about it the Friday before she went. It was a nightmare.

So this year she gives us a piece of paper with her holiday dates on. So we book our holiday around her dates, to make life easier.

I mention about our upcoming holiday - which starts next week assuming she's away as well. She says 'oh no, I am away on the xxth June'. I am like 'are you sure, I thought you were away when we were'. She says No she's away for two weeks starting the xxth.

So now not only have we bloody booked our holiday around her dates (would have booked it later in the year coz of the weather) BUT we also have to scrabble around to arrange childcare at short notice. We also pay her for four weeks holiday, and she needs to give us a month's notice of the holiday - which it works out that she has done now.

I am so cross! She's also recently put her prices up. And this has already happened to us once (she's been our CM for about a year).

What shall I do? She's good with our ds and is flexible and (usually!) reliable. I am sure it's an accident but it's so annoying. If was a purely commercial relationship I would part company from her following this but obviously ds is settled there.

Any thoughts would be gratefully received. Am I being unreasonable to be so cross?

and of course the ncma is going to recommend this!

No it's not up to NCMA, it's a recommendation that's all

The CM offers a service and it's up to the parents who use the service to read their contract

how can ncma reconmend this?

as athene says you are either se or employed - you cant be one but choose the best bits out of the other

I've been a cm for 4years and don't charge for my own 4wks hols, though I charge full fee for parents holidays. Ofsted wouldn't advise her to charge for holidays either - fees and contracts are agreed between cm and parents and Ofsted don't involve themselves with those details.

I would be hacked off too in your position.

I have a holiday sheet which works both ways - I sign to say I acknowledge parents holiday dates and they do the same when I provide my holiday dates. Dates are subject to change, but I wouldn't fram of leaving it that late to tell my parents.

I just want to clear up the holidays issue in defence of us childminders.

I have 3 weeks off, my parents have three weeks off. I dont get paid to have my holidays, they continue to pay me when they are on holiday. So it is all in the wording from here on in....
I could put it that it's half pay for the whole 6 weeks.....
Or that they do ot pay me when they are on holiday, but pay me when I am on holiday. The end result is the same iyswim.
And I tell them my dates, if they choose to coincide their holidays with mine, then all is well and good (I am very considerate with my dates though. I actually dont have ANY time off this year as my mindees couldnt coincide their holidays

I hope that's all clear, and that you can see that it is actually quite reasonable [smil]

fram dream

Its the norm now not have holidays paid as a cm...well up to the new ncma contracts..you only get paid when you work.

grrr no wonder you are peeved!!

i would be too

oh and i don't pay my CM when she is on holiday!

I am a CM and as far as I am aware there is nothing in Ofted's paperwork that says you have to pay for CM holiday's. NCMA do recommend CM's have paid time off - why I have no idea - I have done a thread like this before and it has proved a bit unpopular with some CM's I wouldn't dream of charging when I dont provide a sevice i'm self employed no other s/emp proffession gets paid for not working - why should i - we know (most people) what s/employment is before we start, it's a choice i made, therefore you take the good bits and the bad bits (ie: no sick pay maternity leave, holiday pay) I would be too your cm was bang out of order, take the bit of paper next time you see her, tell her you booked holiday etc based on her hols, ask her what she is going to do about it, personally i wouldn't pay for the two weeks and I would insist in future that the dates given are stuck to, you never know she might be reading your OP and feel a bit

well I am feeling a lot better in that you agree I am not being unreasonable. I think we will suggest that we are not going to pay her holiday. And then suggest the 'both sign' holiday contract.

It's just the bloody arse of arranging childcare when I thought we had it all covered! Pissed off doesn't begin to cover it.

(now though I am cross we pay her holidays at all. We pay her full pay for four weeks and she charges us half for our holidays. This is in London - any other london cms out there?).

We don't pay our CM for any holiday she takes - she instisted on that. We also only have to pay her half the full rate when we're on holiday or she doesn't mind DS for any reason - i.e. - he's sick. We must be very lucky.

I'm a childminder in london and I do NOT charge parents when I take time off but I charge them full fee when they take holidays...unless I can find a temporary mindee.

ofsted dont give a hoot about money, they would nor advise anyone on money issues at all.

I think the norm is pay the CM full rate whenever you don't show up (illness, holiday, whatever the reason), and pay her nothing when she is unavailable for work (illness, holiday, etc.)

I would find out what other childminders in the area are charging and if the have s[paces and then seek to renegotiate the contract (with appropriate notice). SOme people will think this is a harsh approach if your child is settled. But, come Christmas, 4 weeks of childminding fees could buy a lot of presents for my kids.

I agree with dmo, they wouldn't advise on money matters

wolfear, yes you are very lucky

OP, tbh the holiday rates that you describe are a litle ott. However, I have heard of cm's that charge full rates for ALL holidays That's just greedy imho.

I don't charge for holidays, but I don't see the problem if a childminder decides to do so.

The childminder works out their own costs and what to charge for their service. Some charge for their holidays, some charge a slightly higher fee, or make up their costs some other way.
One way or another, you DO pay for a childminder's holidays, in the same way as any other self-employed person factors in their holidays when levying charges. I used to be a self-employed contractor myself and my accountant told me this was standard practice.

Maybe childminders who choose to charge for holidays are simply being more transparent and honest.

And I don't know about the other childminders on this board, but for at least half my holidays, I'm doing childminding work even though I'm not looking after the children. Things like planning, getting learning records up to date, checking resources and other stuff that I don't have time to do in the evenings.

No-one has the right to say that a childminder is charging unfairly without seeing the whole of his or her accounts, and the contract. It's up to the childminder to decide and the parent to agree to those charges. And if you've already agreed to them and signed the contract, I think you're out of order crying "unfair".

Tanith, agree totally - at the moment children are few and far between around here and I spend more on the 'business' side than I do minding . We need the same files in place for part and full-time children.

I make sure parents understand fully what they will and won't be paying for and what my fees are.

Smiling - my son will be in FT school from September and I won't be able to take my annual holidays during term-time without incurring a fine from the local authority, so please go easy on cms who take their holidays during school holidays . It's not always by choice.

I give out my holiday forms in January to all Parents, all my holidays are on it for the following year, ( I usually take the same holidays anyway, May and October half term) these dates are unpaid.

I also have all Bank Holidays and Easter plus Christmas from close of Duties, somewhere around 19th/20th, till about the 3rd/4th.

The Christmas Holiday coincides with the Army shut down on the Camp I live on, and at which time all Parents are off, so would not need childcare. This is charged at half pay.

I know I am in a unusual position that all Parents are off at the same time, so I don't need to be open.

The Parents then get four weeks charged at half pay, for holidays at their discretion.

For everybody that is saying that we are self employed, so we shouldn't charge Holiday pay, we are that precisely, SELF EMPLOYED, we can state our own terms and conditions, whether a Parent wants o sign a contract under those terms and conditions is up to them, if they don't wish to they are free to choose another CM.

I'm a London cm and I don't charge for any holidays - mine or parents. If the child is sick, they don't pay. If a child is term time only, parents pay nothing in the holidays.
I'm self employed so I can decide what I charge & how I operate. It works for me.

To OPs specific situation - yes I'd be pretty angry
but re: paying for CM hols I have no problem if it is transparent.
eg DD has had 2 CMs. The 1st lot we didn't pay anything for their hols BUT their hourly rate was a lot more than our current CM whose hols we do pay at half rate. Swings and roundabouts.

But ... don't forget ... if you have a contract saying she has to give you 1 months notice of holidays and she has given you 1 months notice, then .....

I can't see any perks in being self employed. I would love to be employed and let someone else have all the hassle of paying my tax and ins.I have to beg to be paid for Bank Holidays, and summer holidays. I also would love to be paid on a certain date like everyone else. Because I don't have a 'proper' accountant ( I don't earn enough)I can't be included when applying for the mortgage. Maybe someone can point out the perks!
Sorry! finished ranting ;)

My CM charges for my holidays but not hers (4 weeks this year, 3 weeks last year). She charges for the two May bank holidays (if she normally has your child on Mondays) but not the others.

I suspect that ultimately it comes down to supply and demand. If you desperately need a CM, they have the upper hand. If they need mindees, the parents have the upper hand as long as all the childminders in the area haven't got together and made their terms the same (which is illegal but would be hard to prove, especially as they all tend to use the NCMA template).

HSMM - I see what you are saying, but I am sure that would be for a limited number of weeks per year and as the CM has already told OrangeKnickers different dates (in writing) then she has probably already 'used up' her holiday 'allowance' (regardless of charging or not). It would be an odd contract for a CM to be able to have as much leave as they like as long as they give the parents a months notice. (I am sure some can and do, but not many).

But ... if I read it right, she is not asking for an extra 2 weeks, but a different 2 weeks. Anyway, it all depends on the contract and without seeing that I cannot judge whether the CM should be paid (and nor can anyone else). I do however agree that it is at the very least rude to give definite holiday dates and then change them at the last possible minute when parents have worked their own holidays out around them. I would not do this.