A mother's query about childminder holiday entitlement

[Dooze]

Hello - can anyone help me with a query? I started using a childminder about 6 months ago just one day a week for a whole day. She told me that she was entitled to holiday pay, and it would work out pro-rata as two days per year, I also paid her half day for Xmas day and new years day as they fell on the day I use her. Is this right that we are legally obliged to pay holiday and bank holidays, or is this an agreement between childminder and parent? My child is the childminders first charge - so we're both new to this and I want to review our contract and not clear with the legal side.

It is the same as any contract, you pay what you agree to pay. I don't think there is a legal entitlement to pay, but if you signed the contract, you pay it.

You're lucky really, my CM took 4 weeks a year which for us worked out as 4 days a year, as we also used her services for 1 day a week.

All cms have their own terms and conditions, some charge full pay, some charge half and some don't charge at all.

I don't charge for my own holidays and take 4weeks every year. I tell parents in January when I'm taking them so they have plenty of time to arrange alternative childare if they need it. If a child's contracted day falls on a bank holiday then I still charge the full fee for that day.

You need to read what is in your contract. My minded children and I can take as much holiday as we like, but the agreement is that their parents pay me when I am available (I was NOT available Christmas Day). As I said ... it should all be in your contract.

The part about being entitled to it is hogwash. However, if she wrote in the contract and you signed it then I guess she is now entitled to it.

entitled my arse...

If she were a nanny and your employee then she would be entitled to holiday pay.

However childminders are self-employed so unless it has been specified in your contract and you have signed to agree to those conditions then she is not entitled to anything.

'entitled my arse... ' Not very nice attitude... this was merely a question by a parent. A valid one at that.

Parents should be made aware that as childminders who work very long days (longer than teachers and the average parent's, even including commuting time) and have to do the same paperwork as said teachers for under 5s on wkends and after hours, plus training on wkends and after hours, plus MANY are studying for level 3s etc. too as needed... that NCMA are actively encouraging childminders to ask for FULL paid leave, for the child's benefit too, not just the CM's. It's not an entitlement, but is much encouraged.

As many CMs (myself included) do not get paid when we take our holiday, I don't see 2 or even 4 days paid leave a year... given the many hours loving care the CM gives one's child every year, a huge deal. It certainly doesn't justify condescending remarks.

But it boils down to your contract, as mentioned... if you have signed your contract that means you are happy with what it states. If you need reviewing of it (if you aren't happy), it's best to chat with your CM... so it doesn't become an issue.

"Parents should be made aware that as childminders who work very long days (longer than teachers and the average parent's, even including commuting time) and have to do the same paperwork as said teachers for under 5s on wkends and after hours, plus training on wkends and after hours, plus MANY are studying for level 3s etc. too as needed... that NCMA are actively encouraging childminders to ask for FULL paid leave, for the child's benefit too, not just the CM's. It's not an entitlement, but is much encouraged. "

That is nothing to do with the parents. If you want to be paid for those efforst you should take that up with the bozos who passed the legislation requireing all this malarchy.

It does irritate me when childminders (or any other profession) go around telling unsuspecting new parents that they are "entitled" to this and "entitled" to that... ESPECIALLY when it is not true. Whatever the NCMA requires or suggests you do is between you and them. It does not obligate that parent.

You are a small business and not en employee. If you want to be an employee, you might consider taking up nannying.

I realise my message here is fairly harshly stated, but I believe this tone is appropriate when people are preaching the entitlement culture (wrongly) to unsuspecting parents.

Oh, and you are preaching to the choir if you want to talk about working long hours.

Childminders are 'entitled' to whatever they agree with their parents and subsequently write into their contracts .

Athene, am assuming you are having a bad day. Maybe you should try spending a day with a hardworking cm just to appreciate what we actually do. We aren't 'glorified babysitters' doing this for pocket money - we are professionals the same as anyone else who works with children.

Jenni - agree with you

Also, we are giving advice to a parent who has asked for it - maybe you should open a new thread if you want to have a pop at us

No-one is saying that childminders are not professionals who work long hours.

What we are saying that choosing to be self-employed brings both benefits and drawbacks.

You can not have the benefits of being self-employed but at the same time claim the entitlements of the employed.

Dooze, what a can or worms you have opened There is no legal entitlement as the others have said, however if you have signed a contract where you have agreed to an entitlement then that is what you pay. I personally do not charge for when I am not available and only require half payment during parents holidays.

hth

'Entitled to' makes it sound like a statutory requirement. Which it isn't.

Of course she's perfectly at liberty to write whatever she likes into the contract. I would (and did, when deciding whather to use a CM or afterschool club) average out the cost over the year, rather than fret about the rights and wrongs of paid leave.

No-one is saying CMs are entitled to paid holidays (even if it would be a good idea), just that whatever is agreed in the contract should stand.

So we know which hymn sheet we are all singing from Dooze is this holiday pay in your contract or not?

This is a two way thing, childminders must make their fees clear in their contracts in advance and parents should read the small print before signing.

I've never paid a childminder for holidays. It would be a deal-breaker for us, we simply couldn't afford to pay any more.

what is this paperwork that is the same for teachers?

I can see why cms would encourage full holiday pay but it doesn;t mean they are entitled to it

I'm not having a bad day. In fact I have a relatively new job which I positively love compared to the one I left in January. I looked forward to coming to work today.

It's the whole "entitled to" thing that gets me riled up. If it is in the contract and parent signs it then yes of course you should be paid for it (as I said on my first post on this thread). But, if you tell an unsuspecting parent that it is an entitlement then you are playing dirty. It is not an entitlement.

And, underpaidandoverworked, I work as hard as anyone I know. Last week I left for work at 5:15 on Tuesday morning and got home at 19:00 on Thursday. I also worked about 10 hours on Monday. I did get the bank hols off, but then I am an employee.

I think it's worth remembering that this particular childminder is very new to the job. According to the OP, this is her first contract. I don't think she's trying it on. I do think she's probably unsure about what she can and can't charge for, especially if she's come fresh from a course where the trainer has encouraged her to charge for holidays.

She should be sure about what she can and can't charge for before she starts charging.
But anyway, surely she can charge for what she likes? She just shouldn't give the impression that something is statutory when it is not.

Personally, I was happy to pay holidays for my childminder. I'd much rather a happy, relaxed and refreshed childminder than one who can't afford time-off.

The law is very clear. You need to be in an employment relationship to be entitled to holidays. Childminders are always very quick to point out that they are not employees, and they are not. So they are not entitled to holiday under the legislation.

I think it's a fair point that this childminder is new and someone probaly told her she was entitled to them. But, really, she is oobligated to get it right before she takes on her first client.

Anyway, it has been well established on here by many that she is not legally entitled to them, but is due payment if it is in her contract.

So Dooze... are you going to tell us? Is it in the contract. Enquiring minds want to know.

Hi all I've been looking at this forum for a while, but this is my first message. I'm a CM (for about 4yrs now), the one thing I'm sure of is that no 2 CM's work the same, we do get passed guidelines from places like NCMA, and when we decide our Terms & Conditions, pay rates etc we look at the competition (as any business does) Personally I have been self employed in one capacity or another for the last 12yrs or so, and I have yet to have had a contract that gives me paid leave, sick pay, maternity etc as a self employed person and I might add that I wouldn't expect to, with this in mind when I started minding I was very clear about under what terms I would work these are pretty simple.

I don't work bank hols and I don't expect to be paid for them either.

I have two weeks off a year and I don't expect parents to pay for that either. (after all they need alternative care which will generally cost them something).

If the mindees are off I do not charge if they give me at least two weeks notice (if it's less than 2wks then I do).

If a child is sick I give 3 free sick days a year, over that it's full fee (obviously if the child is going to be off due to a long term illness / problem, then I would consult with the parent, probably end contract and re-start when/if req'd)

Basically if I'm available for work I expect to be paid, if I'm not I don't.

This has worked well for me personally, but as I said prev I have been self emp a long time and being used to this I don't expect any diferent. The parents are happy with this arrangement - they feel it's fair.

I might add though for a self employed person I have never been so heavily regulated, had to comply with so much legislation, attended so much training or done so much paperwork! At times it does feel like you are employed. It is a hard job, but can also be very rewarding, just as many other jobs are. At the end of the day it comes down to what you agreed initially and the contract you signed, it is good practice though to do a contract review (mine are 6mths after the first one, which I think is about average) so your minder may be reviewing it soon anyway it may be a good opportunity for you to come to a mutual agreement. Most minders are very good at taking on board parents comments and work in partnership with parents well.

I pay half for days that I would normally use my CM but that I choose not to send my child (ie Easter and half term holidays). I do not pay her for Bank holidays and she takes 3 weeks off over the summer and 2 weeks off at Christmas which are unpaid.
It is all very clear in the contract we have signed, (based on an NCMA sheet).
HTH.

Hi atworknotworking,

I feel that your t&cs are overly generous to the parents... How do you budget/pay the bills if your parents can just not pay you for any holidays that they choose to take? Just curious as it looks like most childminders have a hard time financially anyway...