A mother's query about childminder holiday entitlement

[Dooze]

Hello - can anyone help me with a query? I started using a childminder about 6 months ago just one day a week for a whole day. She told me that she was entitled to holiday pay, and it would work out pro-rata as two days per year, I also paid her half day for Xmas day and new years day as they fell on the day I use her. Is this right that we are legally obliged to pay holiday and bank holidays, or is this an agreement between childminder and parent? My child is the childminders first charge - so we're both new to this and I want to review our contract and not clear with the legal side.

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AtheneNoctua That is nothing to do with the parents. If you want to be paid for those efforst you should take that up with the bozos who passed the legislation requireing all this malarchy.

It does irritate me when childminders (or any other profession) go around telling unsuspecting new parents that they are "entitled" to this and "entitled" to that... ESPECIALLY when it is not true. Whatever the NCMA requires or suggests you do is between you and them. It does not obligate that parent.

You are a small business and not en employee. If you want to be an employee, you might consider taking up nannying.

I realise my message here is fairly harshly stated, but I believe this tone is appropriate when people are preaching the entitlement culture (wrongly) to unsuspecting parents.

well i am a childminder and i get half pay for my holidays but calculate for the year so the parents pay the same all year round so i have to same wage every month if i didnt get paid for holiday i would never be able to afford to take them so therefore i would never take a holiday and i dont think an over wrked, tired , stresses childminder is any good to the children in her care and im sure no parent would want there childminder to be like that after all you would get an employed parent wrking all year round and not taking the 5weeks yearly entitlement

yikes cheryl

calm down dear

From reading threads on holiday pay for CM's the comments back are always relating to the CM employment status being self employed and Cm's not being entitled to holiday pay which is why i looked into the hmrc and direct gov site to find out what it all meant being Self employed.
You really have to take your time and read the sections on these websites relating to being self employed, defining your self as a worker although you are self employed and what you receive in terms of holiday pay , maternity pay and other benefits.

Direct gov web page - Are you a worker employee or self employed- under self employment it tells you this "It is possible, in some limited cases, to be self-employed for tax purposes but classified as a 'worker' or an 'employee' for employment rights purposes".
Direct gov page Holiday entitlements says

"All workers have a right to at least 5.6 weeks? paid annual leave, but you could receive more than that"

hmrc web page employments status says "Indications that a worker is self-employed

If any of these statements applies, your worker is likely to be self-employed.

• They can hire someone else to do the work you?ve given them, or take on helpers at their own expense.
• They can decide where to provide their services, as well as when and how to do the work you?ve given them.
• You pay them an agreed fixed price - it doesn't depend on how long the job takes to finish.
• They can make a loss or a profit.

Even if none of the statements in the previous list applies, your worker is still likely to be self-employed if most of the following apply to them.

• They use their own money to buy business assets, pay for running costs, etc.
• They?re responsible for putting right any unsatisfactory work, at their own expense and in their own time.
• They provide the main tools and equipment needed to do their work.

None of what you have written is contradicted by AN's post though cheryl. I don;t think anybody on here has questioned the work done by childminders. Only whether they are "entitled" - in law rather than morally - to to be paid for their holidays, as opposed to simply stating to parents that those are the terms and conditions prior to contracts being signed.

In my first year of CMing I took 1 days holiday (couldn't afford to close) and was in a right state but then I decided I HAD to take time out if working to full numbers but over time managed to get parents to agree to paying set amount each month so we could all budget better (but I knew it was MY responsibility to put aside holiday money, was just easier this way). I used to charge for bank hols as was open as usual but now I don't charge as not willing to work them. So when I work out monthly fees, I deduct 4 weeks hols plus all the bank hols and divide by 12, easy

I agree we work very hard, do all our crappy paperwork, training etc. in our own time BUT we are still SE so I agree are not 'entitled' to pay. Yes, we are encouraged to and the training courses bang on about this now but that's not meaning we're 'entitled'! But agree, cut the OPs CM some slack. Starting out is overwhelming these days with everything we have to do to set up so I wouldn't say she's necessarily pulling a fast one!

girls it's an old thread, no need to get all het up all over again, yes?

ok pudding here is my answer: MY CAPS

If any of these statements applies, your worker is likely to be self-employed.

• They can hire someone else to do the work you?ve given them, or take on helpers at their own expense. NO TO 1ST POINT YES TO 2ND
• They can decide where to provide their services, as well as when and how to do the work you?ve given them. YES TO FIRST POINT
• You pay them an agreed fixed price - it doesn't depend on how long the job takes to finish.
• They can make a loss or a profit. YES INDEEDY

Even if none of the statements in the previous list applies, your worker is still likely to be self-employed if most of the following apply to them.

• They use their own money to buy business assets, pay for running costs, etc. YEP
• They?re responsible for putting right any unsatisfactory work, at their own expense and in their own time. YEP (THINKING OF INSPECTION HERE)
• They provide the main tools and equipment needed to do their work. AGAIN YES

Therefore CM is self employed.

HTH

yea therefore a childminder is self employed but is being called a wrker so may have to the holiday rights of a wrker

THANK YOU Cheryl

No pudding, you don't define yourself as a worker, any more than you define yourself as self-employed; your status is determined by the facts.

You quote "It is possible, in some limited cases, to be self-employed for tax purposes but classified as a 'worker' or an 'employee' for employment rights purposes", but you don't seem to have looked into what those limited cases are.

Read this; the information on that page is not perfect, and is a little out of date, but it will do.

You will see that Childminders cannot be workers because they do not serve a (single) employer, they provide a service to a number of customers.

Not read all comments - I'm a registered childminder with this week off (ha ha) with three children of my own how is this supposed to be? Just read their schools are closed tomorrow!

Anyway - the government is trying to get all parents with kids aged 10 back to work - how is this supposed to happen with the snow situation?

How would parents cope without us childminders and nannys?

What about the parents having a steady childcare budget? If they pay you a set rate every month and then have to also pay someone else when you take holiday then they are paying double for the holiday time.

As Katy pointed out, it is your job to budget for your holidays, just like all other self employed people. I don't see that your ability to budget for your holiday is more important than a parent's ability to pay for childcare and go to work.

Sorry, should have said looney and not Katy.

i am confused, i have 2 children that go to a childminder 5days a week to enable me to work part time 4 hours aday this is funded mainly by d.w.p payments (tax credits) my child minder has told me that i have to pay her whilst i am on hoilday to keep the places , as well as her 3 weeks hoilday as hoilday pay. is this right as i have to make alternative child care plans whilist she on hoilday help how to i pay twice help

depends every childminder is different i gave my parents a list of holidays at the start of jan and my parents have then put in the same holidays at wrk so we are both off at the sametime. when they havent been able to get them they get friend,family, neighbour to help they didnt pay another childcare provider

thanks but this is not possible for me as i have no one else to take care of them , this is why i got a child minder , she says the parents picked her hoildays before i started , and takes them every year even though some perents have now left.

could you not try and take yours at the sametime, i dont understand why she lets the parents pick them i pick my own holidays. i did have a parent in the past who had to change to a nursery after she had she second child as she could not get any1 to watch the 2 kids when i took my holiday was easier to find some1 when it was just one but was hard once she had 2

last year we took the same hoilday 1 week at a time june aug may , cause we had no hoilday plans , and were feflexeable , this year we book a foreign hoilday which we have had to take in school summer hoilday cause we have older children in high school ,

It will be in your contract tracy, but it does sound pretty standard for a CM.

tracey333 I suggest you contact working famillies tax and ask them if they can help you? I have no idea if this is possible but if you have agreed and signed the contract saying you will pay for her holidays then you will be legally bound to do just that. As a childminder myself I charge for holidays, I give out a list of my holiday dates at the start of the year so that parents can try to take the same time off as me if possible so that they don't have to pay out twice if we can possibly help it.

suppose you could phone and just say your childcare as gone up tht week and give them the new figure you dont even need to tell them the exact reason why could be that your using more hour or anything

i charge 4 weeks half pay for holidays and charge for all bank hols, but dont work them. if mindees go on hols at dif time to me, they pay full fee.

all in contract, policies etc etc.

if they dont like it, they dont choose me.

ok, hi everyone, i have found this thread through google as i have the problem of my childminder charging for holidays, please dont misunderstand i do not begrudge her charging, on looking into this she is not "entitled" to charge which is what i was led to believe however it is in her contract which in effect means she can charge, now i work full time as does my partner, we do get help with childcare but not alot, we pay a cost of 235 (we get 105 from TaxCredt) per week this is for a full time place for my youngest (i pay a full day although she is at nursery half of it) and a couple of hours for my oldest although she pro ratas the school holidays in so it is the same rate every week if that makes sense! She will take 4 weeks holiday a year, she chooses 2 weeks in the summer holidays, becasue of our jobs we cannot take holidays then so will have no choice but to pay someone else to have the girls full time for the 2 weeks, so lets say they charge 235, i have contaced the tax credit office and you CANNOT claim help for another childminder for the same weeks as you have already claimed for someone else! so basically my childminders holiday will cost me 375 per week, this is actually more than i earn, so i just wonder how do people actually afford to do this? I adore my childminder but i simply cannot get my head around this at all.

I would get around that scenario by not signing that contract. AS you have already pointed out you are committed not because she has any entitlement but because you agreed to it in a written contract. I only offer paid holidays to my employees and they have to ask me if they can take holiday on a certain date. Most of us can't afford to pay for childcare twice. Heck, a lot of people can't afford to pay for it once.

I think I would politely try to renegotiate the contract. And if she said no I would have to consider looking for another childminder.