A mother's query about childminder holiday entitlement

[Dooze]

Hello - can anyone help me with a query? I started using a childminder about 6 months ago just one day a week for a whole day. She told me that she was entitled to holiday pay, and it would work out pro-rata as two days per year, I also paid her half day for Xmas day and new years day as they fell on the day I use her. Is this right that we are legally obliged to pay holiday and bank holidays, or is this an agreement between childminder and parent? My child is the childminders first charge - so we're both new to this and I want to review our contract and not clear with the legal side.

Yes, that is very generous. I don;t know any childminder or nursery that waives charges for mindeees holidays regardless of the amount of notice given.

I know some do have term time only agreements.

I agree with your question leeloo1. By me not charging for MY holidays but parents still paying when they are away, I can still budget for them as they are within my control.

My parents can budget too as they know my holidays many months in advance and often they co-ordinate their holiday with mine... killing two birds with one stone: (1) ensuring they don't need to find alternate childcare when I am on holiday, and (2) ensuring they aren't paying fees whilst they are on holiday.

How many nurseries keep a vacancy for a child on hliday? None I know of.

One of my mindees has had 6 weeks holiday this year thus far, imagine they werent paying me...? Absolutely impossible for me to work with such uncertainty of my next salary.

Hi Cat64 your'e quite right there is no right or wrong way, what works for some doesn't for others, The system I use (although sounds a bit wierd to some CM) does actually work well for me, my annual planner is given out once a year so plenty of notice what I find is that our parents book their hols at the same time as ours that being the case the children only have a week to 10dys off over the year (most employed people only have 4wks hol entitlement per anum anyway so only 2wks left after mine are taken off) and sometimes parents split the remaining time with dc or dh/p so I tend to find that parents are not taking advantage of my Terms in fact it can work to my advantage if I need time off for a course / funeral (which has happened recently) or some such they are very understanding, I also charge over a 52wk period so I don't have gaps in my regular income this helps parents budget too and means they don't get extra large bills come holiday club time, I know each week whats coming in and it's the same regardless of wether I'm working or not. I also provide all meals/snacks and pay the full cost of outings (I do ask parents to do a pack lunch for these though) I'm also not the cheapest (some near me charge as little as 1.80 per hour, which I do think is undervaluing what we do, but thats another issue). Please don't judge me too harshly, I use a system that works well for me, but may not be suitable for others, to me being self employed and employed are very distinctly defined, I suppose thats due to my background.

Just to answer this as well - CMs are not employees so legally are not entitled to any holiday pay.

However, what you agree with them contractually will depend on bargaining power between you. A CM with a waiting list can call the shots - one without a lot of children may be more flexible.

I pay my CM if I do not use her because I am on hols or my son is ill. I do not pay her for her own holidays - 4 weeks this year, normally 3 and a bit. There is a grey area as far as bank holidays which she says she is working - last year I paid for the two May bank holidays (and only knew afterwards when I queried my May invoice that she was "working" - I guess there are people who have to work BHs like nurses who will need care on bank holidays for their kids so maybe she was) - but not for any others like Easter.

What I don't know is whether she gets paid twice if for example we are away (she looks after my son on Mondays and Fridays in the school hols) and she gets another child in on one of those days. I've never had a refund and I've always paid the extra if I've had extra days so I bet she does get paid twice! I have been able to swap quite often though which has saved me money.

Gosh - I didn't expect such a heated debate! But, it's useful and clears up my query. Thanks for everyone's input. My contract does say paid 2 days leave - I was led to believe that this was statutory - I know office temps are paid statutory leave so I thought may be the same applies to childminders too. But, I will consider all of this when it comes to review. I have no objection to paying annual leave, but wasn't happy about bank holidays when this hadn't been agreed/discussed and they don't want to work on this day (ie Xmas and NY). Fault on both parties and we're both new to this.

Dooze dont be too hard on your cm if she is new she may not realise (from a new cm)

How many of you baa humbugh scrooges out there, bemoaning childminders, actually receive a percentage in tax credits to pay for your childcare. The only reason you can go to work is because someone else looks after your children and does a very good job. If you are that unhappy in your bad atittudes towards childminders, give up your job and look after your children yourself. What a childminder decides to charge or not to charge is their own private business, they are providing you a service they are not employed by parents.I would have thought parents would want to keep a good childminder and not weigh up the value of their bank balance against their children.

Having to do my own terms and conditions as a CM I did research on self employment in regards to holidy pay. I found from the Inland Revenue that an Self employed person can ask to be paid for their holiday if they come under the defination of a worker and work unde a contract - we are not a shop where a customer purchases an item, we provide a service under a contract for what we would hope be as long as 18 months which would means for us to recieve some benefit in he form of a paid holiday.
What a CM agrees to be paid for this benefit is within their choice but parents should as least consider paying their CM at least half of their fee, show respect for the serive yu are receiving.(hmm)

The tax credit line always gets rolled out on this debate and I for one don't know or work with anyone who is entitled to a penny. It annoys me that the assumption is made that everyone out there is getting some so shouldn't question the holiday situation.

My experience of using a childminder is limited, I only entered into it once and very blindly. The holiday terms were never discussed with me and although I asked on various occasions I was not given a contract. With hindsight I realise how naive this was but never using a CM before I wasn't aware of the implications.Going on the premise that it is illogical for a self employed person to expect paid holiday, it came as a complete shock to me when the first bout of holidays arrived and there was a demand for payment.

In my initial meetings we had naturally discussed hourly rates and I had budgeted to these, to discover she wanted 4 weeks full paid holiday and full pay if she was sick while I would have to pay out again for alternative care or maybe take unpaid time off work myself whilst I paid her, i ran for the hills. I refused to pay the holiday and gave her notice, I felt the notice was more than she was entitled to seeing the contract had not been agreed and signed.

One negative experience and attacks from Childminders on forums like this made me vow to steer well clear in the future, using a childminder would be a last resort for me. The reasons behind the terms just don't stack up for me, you afterall choose to do the job, its not the parents responsibility to compensate your life choice. Amanda above suggests parents give up their jobs and look after their own kids, likewise CM's give up your self employed status and become and employee if the grass is so much greener.

pudding, the term 'worker' has a specific (although admittedly not very clear) meaning in employment law. Childminders do not fit within this meaning, and so they are not workers. This has nothing to do with HMRC (formerly Inland Revenue).

I show respect by paying a fair rate for the service I do actually receive: I would find it difficult to respect a service for which I had to pay when the service provider decided that I couldn't have it.

Whenever the subject of childminders charging for bank holidays comes up, people tend to forget the unfair impact that charging for bank holidays has on people, like the OP, who do not use a CM full-time. Whichever way you look at it, it is NOT fair that over the Christmas period, Dooze paid for two days of child care that she didn't get (albeit at an arbitrary half rate) but someone with different days will have got as much child care as they paid for.

diceyreilly there are many good professional childminders out there, don't let the bullies put you off.

I'm sorry Mr Anchovy but I do come under the definition of a worker in my role as a Childminder. I pay my own tax and National Insurance contrubitions in doing so. Look into the HMRC website and see for yourself the information on self employment benefits!!
What makes you think that CM's dont come under this meaning. What do you think the job is that we do?
You saying this just tells me you have no respect for the service you receive.

From reading Mr Anchovy's comment I think it should be considered what I said in another thread - CM's should look into changing their title because some parents do not understand the proffesional role we have.

pudding can you explain what you mean by defining "worker", is that a HMRC definition? could you link the HMRC info please.

I kind of know what Mr Anchovy is referring to here. It's a grey area but it all depends on whether you are offering a Contract FOR Services or a Contract OF Services. My undersatnding is that OF serices means that you are contracted by someone for your services and are entitled to employee benefits eg holiday. However the person that contracts you dicates your working week, what you will do, the breaks you will take etc. Contract FOR Services is for Self Employed people who govern their own day and workload. The HRMC website treats Childminders as someone who offers a Contract FOR Services.

Thats what I thought too Dicey, my understanding is that if you are s/emp but your contractor stipulates working days / times / uniform / when you have time off etc then you are under the Contract OF services. Wheras CM's dictate when they are available for work, when they are off, what they wear etc. Definately a grey area.

Wow - can't believe this can of worms has been re-opened .

FWIW, I never charged for my own annual holidays but if a mindees 'contracted' day fell on a bank holiday then yes, I would charge full fee. It was all in the contract and I never had a problem with parents over it - they were still getting paid and still getting the 'childcare element' of the tax credit anyway if they'd claimed it.

Look fwd to catching up with this thread again

Jeez Amanda, you sound like a fun happy person with whom I'd like to leave my children.

I havent used a CM for a few years now but 3 of my 4 children have been in their care over the last 18 years. Things have changed a lot since my first DC went to a CM when she was 6mth old. There seems to be an awful lot more paperwork, required training, activities etc etc. I wouldnt do it. For that amount of effort I would want much better pay and conditions.

I have always been on a fairly low wage and since DS1 was born, worked part time. But I never had a problem with paying holidays. It seemed perfectly reasonable to me because I got paid holidays.

I dont think I ever got charged if a CM was sick but did if child was sick. This also seemed more than fair (I always got sick pay myself).

There was no way I couldve afforded to pay private nursery fees. Thank God for CM.

www.hmrc.gov.uk/paye/employees/start-leave/stauts.htm

??? pudding that is relating to whether a person is self employed or an employee

CMs are self employed, they take on the risks

And bleurgh at the CM who resurrected this thread, what a vile and uneccessary post. amandajcarrbrown, for example, is a twat.

[folds arms]

Yes and it reads on to give you an indicator that a self employed person can be defined as a worker.

CM are not workers. They are business owners. The parents are customers/clients and not employers.

pudding can you cut and paste the exact ohrase you are referring to - I cannot find it

Thank you