For mums who employ nannies/housekeepers and nannies too... please have a look and let me know your opinion....

[lisalisa]

We have not had much luck of late in retaining nannies having gone through about 3 in last 18 months or so.

We have now had a discussion with our nanny/housekeeper in which it has been agreed that she will start working notice and before advertising for her replacement i wanted to get some soundings from MN on what might be going wrong or what we may need to add or drop from our list of exepctatoins/requirements.

This is what we need and why:

1 Cover from 7.00am to 8.00pm 5 days per week. The reason for the long hours is that I leave the house at 7.30am and dh slightly earlier. Our nanny has to therefore get the children ready for school and take them.

Long hours at the other end as after school I am ferrying the children to various activities and tutors ( some have special needs etc) and by the time I am home to stay it is 8.00pm ( some of the children are older).

2 Evening babysitting about 3 times per week including one weekend night. We are very flexible on this and for the last few montsh have foregone this completely as our current nanny goes "home " on weekends even though she is "live in " ( we did not know she had another home when interviewing her but that is another story!).

3 Cleaning during the day done. Our dcs are all at school during the day between 9.00am and 4.30pm ( I do school pick up so no-one at home barring child being ill between these hours). Therefore , despite the long working hours the vast majoirty of these are childfree hours spent doing 3 hours cleaning and otherwise free. We do not advertise them as "free hours" as they are technically not in case child is ill or repair man /gas man etc coming but nanny knows that provided 3 hours cleaning is done ( this is how much we have worked out we need per day to keep the house clean and tidyish ) she is free to relax /watch TV etc as she wishes.

4 Playing with the children/ very friendly and poistive attitude. Part of the reason we are letting our current nanny go is that she is unable to interact wit the childrne at all and prefers just to sweep around them but will not, unless literally forced by me , colour wiht them or play board games.

5 A basic ability to supervise homework. Basic is key word here and I would really only expect/like help with homework for 5 yr old and 7 yr old which any competent nanny should be able to manage ( basic reading and maths skills). Again, its something I've forgeone wiht current nanny who is simply unable to do this.

We have 5 children aged between 3 and 12 yrs. We are a fairly messy and disoragnised household. I find organisation quite hard and am forever running around at the last minute. Kids are also v messy and as a result we all as a family spend most of weekend tidying and clenaing - we seem to sweep the floor about twice a day alone!

Kids do a lot of housework. For e.g. one washes and one dries dishes aft4er supper and one lays table and one sweeps floor. All ( apart from 3 yr old ) put away their own washing . So trying to bring them up to be largely responsible for the house and the mess/play that they need to clear up .

Children are not cheeky to nanny and are always polite an dfriendly so no issues there.

Is this acheiveable - to have a nanny who is great with the kids and can keep them entertained on school hols and after school ( games and colouring - not looking for clown type entertainment!) but who can also keep house clean tidy and organised during school time or am I asking for too much?

Any tips on how to phrase adverst so as to acheive this would be greatly appreciated.

Oh and we pay £350 per week after tax live in and we live in an outer london suburb.

Thanks

What are the ages of the children and what the the special needs?
If 3 of the children are over 7 then it will be outside of many nanny's experience/training. And if you are looking at live in you would tend to get mainly younger applicants I would have thought.

That's a very long day for a nanny and you want her to work an evening too? This sounds like too much to be honest.

Why did your last nannies leave?

Sounds like a v v long day, do u really need 3hrs of cleaning a day? thats an awful lot.

Hi Ladymuck

the children are aged 3,5,7,9 and 12 yrs.
When you say older childrne are outside of nanny's experience I would thought that older childrne are easier in teh sense that they do not require intensive care etc. Just to clarify the colouring and board games and homework help is only for the younger children. I would not expect my nanny to do much stuff with my 9 and 12 yr olds - firstly neither want it as they don't play games or colour and secondly the homework call would be unfair and I do it solely with them. The type of hlep I need is to keep littlies occupied whilst I help biggies. My current nanny just constantly disappears to hang washing or whatever when I return home iwth kids and I always but always have to call her into the family areas where we are and remind her that the after school hours are those she needs to be aournd the childrne and me to help not to be dusting ( when she has had over 7 hours in day to do that - although i don't add that bit!).

Special needs referred to are educational not physical for e.g. my 7 and 12 yr olds on special english and math leanring programmes and go to extra tuition outside house after school and also need 20 mins per day at home one to one wiht me.

Maybe she doesn't have the time during the day to do everything you want her to do so she's exhausted. If she's still doing housework when you arrive home does this not tell you there's a problem? Have you asked her what she's doing during the day?

Hi scrooged - thank yo ufor your reply.

perhaps I need to clarify here. When I say work in evening the childrne are asleep. Yes, she is technically on duty but free to do as she pleases in house as kids are asleep. No child has ever woken up for past 2 yrs or so after going to bed ( yes I know we are very lucky) so it really is just keeping an eye out or an ear open.

Last nannies left as one returned home to look after sick mother and one wanted to move in with friends and became a restuarant manager ( although you never realy know whethe rthese reasons are genuine do you?).

Rev- thanks for your input. Makes a change to be discussing something more "lightheareted " with you.

If I went au pair plus route what would the changes be in expectatoins or in practice. Open to all offers/suggestions but job tyupes tend to blur in practice. Did think of student who needs time to study in day but a bit worried about this as if hcild is ill and we do have 5 dcs I don't wnat student resenting it or not looking after children properly due to other commitments.

sowhatis - sounds a lot of cleaning, yes, but it is a big house and we do have a lot of washing and ironing. Myabe in fact less is needed - i don't really put a strict time limit on it as long as house is clean and tidy hwne we come home - and I'm not partiuclarly fussy so it'd have to be really dirty for me to complain1

How about a nanny for the children and a cleaner?

maybe get an aupair to handle your cleaning, ironing and babysitting ( live in)..Part time live out nanny for after school hours?

Those are very long hours for a nanny together with babysitting three times a week! I personally think that is unreasonable. Those sorts of hours would be much more suitable to an au-pair I would have thought. Is your current nanny qualified/experienced because I've never heard of a nanny that doesn't want to sit down and play and colour with her charges! Is the nanny expected to do the school run as well because if so, by the time she has got back from the schools and the same in the afternoon, together with three hours of cleaning during the day, doesn't leave her with much actual usuable time. ( at three hours of cleaning every day. Do you live in a mansion!) I have worked as a nanny before and imo, I think nannies would be looking for an easier deal than the one you are offering.

I think the long hours may be part of it although I appreciate she has time off during the day. She doesn't have a commute though and you sound as if you are offering a decent live in wage. Would you consider having a cleaner one a week to help by doing a 'deep clean' so she can spend more of the day preparing activities for the children etc? Does she cook meals for the kids? What do you do about holidays? You sound amazing though with all the running around after school you must be exhausted-could you not get a tutor to come to the house? But that is bye the bye. The main problem I think is finding someone who is an efficient housekeeper, very organised and still has an affinity and rapport with the kids. For the first two you will have to rely on references but for the last you should be able to do an 'extended interview' with perhaps your top 2 or 3 candidates at home to see how (s)he gets on with the little ones?? We have done this before ( and found a lovely nanny-who has just given in notice but that is another story) and paid them for a half day to really get a feel for how they are with children.

I think you're combining 2 jobs here and with the added complication that you are around which I do think causes issues.

First of all, you need a cleaner. I don't think you can expect the nanny to do all the cleaning too.

Second of all, you need a live in nanny for those hours (I would have thought).

I also wonder whether your past nannies have had confusion at exactly what their role is. If the mother is there ferrying the children to activities, is the nanny at home just picking up where you left off with the little ones? I expect my nanny to do all the after school stuff with the kids, even the homework with the younger ones.

I just wonder whether you need to define exactly what the nanny role is because it does sound a bit uncertain (i.e. some children on one day, not on another because you've taken them somewhere else) because I do think, most nannies I have met, enjoy consistency as much as anything else and also the chance for them to take charge and make it their own job.

None of that is meant as criticism btw, just observation

thank you all very very much and I do mean the double "very". I am coming to see that i am trying to combine the 2 jobs and perhaps that is where things are falling down. Finances are limited to what we currently pay now though so can't go above £350 plus tax so would have to make separate arrangments work on that money.

If I got an au pair to cover the childcare hours - say from 7.00-10.30 ( extra hour after drop off being to clean the kitchen as that looks like a war zone after breakfast and lunch making for 5 kids!) and then from 3 - 8pm what would i be looking at paying? Would also want the 3 babysits per week too?

Btw - current nanny does not cook - I do all cooking and in holidays kids either go to clubs or i and dh take a few days each and do stuff with them.

I agree with those posters who say its not natural for nanny not to want to sit and colour and play - hence a lot of my frustration.

Sigh - looking at your situation foxinsocks - I have got it all wrong.......What do you do re cleaning?

For what you are looking for you should pay the aupair - at least 150pw. or maybe you could get aupair to work 7-12noon (tidy up,iron etc). plus 3 nights babysitting for 90pw..this hours would appeal more as she could prehaps find another little job or study or just do whatever. and you could then get an after school liveout nanny for 7ph 3.00 -7pm for 140pw min. so prehaps 240pw min both paid.

oh lisa, she MUST cook

god you must be knackered working a day like that and then doing what you are doing afterwards

well we also can't afford a cleaner on top of the nanny at the moment so I have err put the kids to work a bit.

I do the loo/bathroom as I don't think they'd get the hygiene bit (!) but they hoover, clean their rooms and I wipe down the kitchen every night (which is all it needs). Loo/bathroom only gets done once a week but I do squirt bleach round if needed.

The nanny, very kindly, shoves the washing on during the week (not always). I/dh takes it out and puts it in the tumble drier and then we fight as to who puts it away (normally dh as I cook the evening meal). Sometimes the nanny actually does that all for us but I don't ask her to (and I do know that some nannies do the children's laundry as part of their duties so you might look at that? get a separate basket for the children and get the new nanny to do their washing during the day?). Mainly we do the washing on the weekend though.

also the nanny tidies up after the children (who make most of the mess anyway) as that's part of what she does so generally the house is quite tidy tbh as both dh and I WOTH

LisaLisa - I learnt a while back to never try to fix these kinds of hours/needs with one person.

I reckon you need a live-in au pair, a live-out nanny, and a cleaner on top. We work to that in our house. It is really, really complicated to set up the 'scehdules' initially, but works like magic in practice.

We have the nanny do 3 early starts and 2 'lates' each week, and the au pair does 2 early starts, 3 lates and ad-hoc babysitting on top. The AP also makes up to his 25 hours with cleaning/ironing when the kids are at school/nursery. During holidays he drops all of the cleaning/ironing and we have the nanny do 9-6 each day and the AP does the wrap around morning/eveining and neither of them do any lates or babysitting.

Total hours that we work to are 42 for the nanny and 25 for the AP (including soem weekend work every other week). We also have a cleaner once a week to change beds/do bathrooms and some of the deep-clean stuff. Oh, and we send out our shirts for ironing because the AP - delightful though he is - just doesn't cut the mustard here

If you want I can send you a copy of my 'schedules' - tis a work of art, I swear. I think that you will do better with a live-out nanny than a live-in one because a live-in one doign those hours will always be able to find another family that are less time-intensive; a local live-out nanny means that you can share the unsociable stuff with an AP, so is likely to be better for both.

Oh, and the cost of my nanny and AP combined blows your budget, but only by £2.50 a week. Once you take in taxes on top, it will come in just under (becausse the AP bit is tax-free)

If the SP needs to drive then make sure you stick to over 23 years old only, othwerwise the insurance cost will bite you.

I am knackered foxinsocks and a bit depresed and realising that something is going badly wrong.

I cook , I clean and I teach kids ( my own) heavily after hours . I run them around to activities and i shop ( for food clothes for them) supervise activities, read bedtime stories every single night , sing songs to each before bed ( of the 3 littlies) and try to find time to spend one on one wiht my teen and 9 yr old too. Sigh..... And I do playdates too.

Ok asuming you also work foxinsocks please be my tutor for a while here.....How do you manage it in the fox household and how many foxcubs do you have?

From your second post I presume not that many and how do you get away with just a kitchen wipe? What about kitchen floor etc? When do dcs do the hooovering? So many quesions and i just hope you have the time.....

I think your list of what you need is more than a "normal" nanny job. The two main issues are the extent of the housekeeping required and the lack of sole charge clarity. I think the hours, though long, are not necessarily a problem for a live in nanny but most nannies, in my experience, want to look after children not housework (and if she's doing your laundry there will be a small mountain I suspect). My second observation follows on from this - if you, as mother, are doing "the best bits" of the role (not a criticism) but as a result they are unable to plan/organise a routine for the children but have to fill in whenever you want (this may be wrong - you may have a very organised weekly routine but I didn't get this impression from your description of the household) then it won't appeal to career nannies.

If I were you I think I would write down everything that needed to be done to keep the house running and the children looked after and then work out the bits you want/are able to do and then from what's left work out whether you are looking for a nanny, a cleaner or an au pair or some combination of the three. You can then advertise with a very clear job description that is consistent from week to week. This way you should get the right person/people.

This approach won't work if you can't be consistent in your own contribution - but I don't know how much flexibility you need or want. Whilst I can see that maximising flexibility will suit you - it makes the nanny/cleaner/au pairs job much less satisfactory and may be worth compromising on as a result.