For mums who employ nannies/housekeepers and nannies too... please have a look and let me know your opinion....

[lisalisa]

We have not had much luck of late in retaining nannies having gone through about 3 in last 18 months or so.

We have now had a discussion with our nanny/housekeeper in which it has been agreed that she will start working notice and before advertising for her replacement i wanted to get some soundings from MN on what might be going wrong or what we may need to add or drop from our list of exepctatoins/requirements.

This is what we need and why:

1 Cover from 7.00am to 8.00pm 5 days per week. The reason for the long hours is that I leave the house at 7.30am and dh slightly earlier. Our nanny has to therefore get the children ready for school and take them.

Long hours at the other end as after school I am ferrying the children to various activities and tutors ( some have special needs etc) and by the time I am home to stay it is 8.00pm ( some of the children are older).

2 Evening babysitting about 3 times per week including one weekend night. We are very flexible on this and for the last few montsh have foregone this completely as our current nanny goes "home " on weekends even though she is "live in " ( we did not know she had another home when interviewing her but that is another story!).

3 Cleaning during the day done. Our dcs are all at school during the day between 9.00am and 4.30pm ( I do school pick up so no-one at home barring child being ill between these hours). Therefore , despite the long working hours the vast majoirty of these are childfree hours spent doing 3 hours cleaning and otherwise free. We do not advertise them as "free hours" as they are technically not in case child is ill or repair man /gas man etc coming but nanny knows that provided 3 hours cleaning is done ( this is how much we have worked out we need per day to keep the house clean and tidyish ) she is free to relax /watch TV etc as she wishes.

4 Playing with the children/ very friendly and poistive attitude. Part of the reason we are letting our current nanny go is that she is unable to interact wit the childrne at all and prefers just to sweep around them but will not, unless literally forced by me , colour wiht them or play board games.

5 A basic ability to supervise homework. Basic is key word here and I would really only expect/like help with homework for 5 yr old and 7 yr old which any competent nanny should be able to manage ( basic reading and maths skills). Again, its something I've forgeone wiht current nanny who is simply unable to do this.

We have 5 children aged between 3 and 12 yrs. We are a fairly messy and disoragnised household. I find organisation quite hard and am forever running around at the last minute. Kids are also v messy and as a result we all as a family spend most of weekend tidying and clenaing - we seem to sweep the floor about twice a day alone!

Kids do a lot of housework. For e.g. one washes and one dries dishes aft4er supper and one lays table and one sweeps floor. All ( apart from 3 yr old ) put away their own washing . So trying to bring them up to be largely responsible for the house and the mess/play that they need to clear up .

Children are not cheeky to nanny and are always polite an dfriendly so no issues there.

Is this acheiveable - to have a nanny who is great with the kids and can keep them entertained on school hols and after school ( games and colouring - not looking for clown type entertainment!) but who can also keep house clean tidy and organised during school time or am I asking for too much?

Any tips on how to phrase adverst so as to acheive this would be greatly appreciated.

Oh and we pay £350 per week after tax live in and we live in an outer london suburb.

Thanks

supernanny - btw - thank you for idea re separate au pair and nanny . Added to separate cleaner though and I think we'd go a bit mad!!! Am giving it thought though.....

Squiffy - I think I love you

Please do a break down fo rme as to how much you pay each and what hours they do daily as my brain got a bit addled going through all that!!! this way lies salvation i think.....

MrsWobble - excleent post thank you and more food for thought.....am coming to idea that I need to sit down - perhaps with foxinscoks and squiffy on board and work out what I can do with what money and what hours and then find the right army people.

Lisalisa - have sent you a CAT, if you reply I can email you my spreadsheets.

It is a headache (especially remembering to draw cash out each week to pay AP and cleaner), but still far less stressful than the other options I have tried.

OMG no wonder you are knackered!

ok...

the nanny can do clothes shopping and food shopping (can do food during the day while everyone at school)

when you say teach, they are at school yes? so combine reading homework with a bedtime story. I have to be honest here and say I don't read to mine any more (2 children, 7 and 8 yr old but 7 yr old ds what I would call err challenging). I just don't have the time but we do lots of cuddles at bedtime and kissing in bed.

Nanny does all their homework with them.

Kitchen floor, I ignore. It's tiles, it looks ok. If there's a big spillage it gets cleaned up otherwise it waits for a weekly hoover. Probably once a week I'll have a go at it myself but it never stays clean long anyway.

Children hoover once a week, normally Sat morning or Sun morning which sounds odd but I then take them out for a coffee and cake as a treat for them helping. They LOVE this. I would never have believed it would work out so well.

The nanny keeps their rooms tidy during the week and on the weekend they make a mess.

I think the key is lowering your standards. But I am quite messy and disorganised so for me it doesn't fuck with my head iyswim. If a non tidy/non spotless house fucks with your head (and I know it does with some people), you need to think of a plan b. BUT the house is ok, totally presentable. A good nanny will keep it in order anyway tbh.

I think your problem is you are worried about the hours the nanny does so don't let her do enough tbh.

Fox - thank yo uthat is very interesting. I have a feeling that just a nanny ( even one who I put to work more to use your expression before I get shot for it ) without any other help won't work for me. WE do need a certain level of cleaning every day - and yes I am one of those people who feel uncomfortable and unable to rest and relax in a messy and dirty home ( not saying yours is btw just that both me and dh are a slightly bit ocd in that way). Sounds good that nanny cooks and shops for you and does homeowrlk. Am adding all this into the pot by the way and mulling it over.

Waiting for Squiffey's cat as I think that separate people are going to be the way to go here. I certainly feel that each separate person would be more motivated and enthusiastic for starters and that the job description and expectations would also be better.

yes, think that's probably a good plan, the separate people . Wasn't mocking you at all re cleaning just that I know it is important to some people's mental well being and tbh, I would love a cleaner but atm, we can't justify one. Maybe we will with time.

Good luck with it all!

and re putting the nanny to work, what I really meant is that you need to relax a bit more because with that schedule, you will burn out I think. It's far too much, I don't know how you've managed so far without having some sort of mental health issue! As hard as it can be, if you have people there to help, you do need to lean on them if you get my drift.

fox - thanks

Grateful thanks to all.

Having sat down with a clear head and printed out this thread i am going wiht :

1 An au pair to work 7.00am to 10.30am daily and 3 babysits in evenings. Budgeted £80 per week. AP will do morning school run and have an hour afterwards to clean kitchen and run hoover upstairs.

2 Part time nanny - budgeted at £10 per hour inluding tax to work 3pm - 8pm. Figured that as I do pick ups she can between 3-4.30pm do some of hte following on different days

shopping
prep of simple foods like rice or mashed potato or choopping and prep for meal I will make on return
washing - would it be very cheeky to make it parents wash as well as otherwise there's no place/time in this new plan for anyone else to do it?>
prep of lunches for next day
tidying kids room
doing kids irnong

Would ask say 2 of these tasks per day and also take one dy where nanny picks up instead of doing trhese tasks and I can go to the gym....bliss.......

3 Cleaner - only one clean in budget left for 3 hours and plan to ask her to do deep clean once per week on a sunday to set us up for week so that nanny and AP only have to tidy clean rooms and hoover etc.

I hope this will do it although it is a bit light on the cleaning front and doesn't really include any irnoing.

Thanks Rev - don't think I'll be able to shove any more cleaning in though or the budget will give way under the strain!

i've got to try a different way forward though as current one clearly isn't working both in terms of job satisfaction for nanny/housekeeper or for me in terms of real solid help wiht childcare/related duties.

Anyone else any ohter comments?

looks sensible. only comments would be

1. can AP do your ironing - does the school run plus cleaning the kitchen and running the hoover really take until 10.30? Alternatively, would you alternate hoovering and ironing?

1. do you need the nanny to work until 8pm on the days the AP is babysitting? if you can save a few hours there that would increase your cleaning budget.

1. washing - do you have time to put all the washing in the machine in the morning and then ask the nanny to take it out/dry it? this wouldn't be much more work for her than doing all the children's laundry and might fit into your schedule. All my nannies have been happy to do a proportion of the total laundry rather than just the children's - it's only ironing that gets differentiated and provided you are doing some of it it doesn't seem unfair.

LisaLisa you say "I cook , I clean and I teach kids ( my own) heavily after hours . I run them around to activities and i shop ( for food clothes for them) supervise activities, read bedtime stories every single night , sing songs to each before bed ( of the 3 littlies) and try to find time to spend one on one wiht my teen and 9 yr old too. Sigh..... And I do playdates too"

These are all jobs that the nanny should be doing -
*A nanny should be able to shove together a casserole, a pie, lasage etc or put things in the slow cooker during the day if no children about.
*Drive/take children to activities/do the school run
*Supervise/Plan activities
*Meal plan and shop for the ingredients
*Supervise/take on playdates

When I work for a sahm - I supervise breakfast, clear up the kitchen - load dishwasher, and then get 3 children dressed 1 toddler - 2 schoolies (4/6) teeth brushed, hair brushed etc.

SAHM drives them to school

I make the children's beds, take dirty pj's dowstairs, as well as cups etc, put on a load of washing, then either take little one out for the morning to activities etc - get back and put little one in the playroom whilst I cook up some lunch for her, empty the washing machine and tumbel drier, put the wet washing in the tumble drier. Go through and fold washing with the toddler.

Put away toys in the play room and serve lunch for toddler - put to bed, for afternoon nap (2 hours) then do a quick clean of the kitchen sides etc. Mop the floor, then hoover the downstairs rooms. Grab my self some lunch.

Iron children's clothes, place parents to the side, put clothes away, put ironingboard/iron away, and if time have a quick tidy of the children's rooms - possibly change the sheets if needed etc - change towels.

Head downstairs and start a preparation of the evenings meal - if it's going to be a busy day after school - otherwise I cook at tea time. Sit down with a cup of tea for a short break.

Afternoon consists of taking youngest out again - then heading back in time for SAHM to return with the children. SAHM might then listen to reading in the other room, or disapear and I will supervise activities / take the children for a walk for the hour before dinner needs sorting.

Sort dinner/watch children, lay the table or delegate the task. Serve dinner and eat with the children, tidy up sides, wash up pans etc - load dishwasher.

Then the children have a chance to play on the computer but they have to tidy the playroom first - followed this by bath time, milk and a snack in front of the tv then its bedtime.

If I could drive then I would do pick ups from school etc - or take them to school /pick up from activities etc. Also would expect to make the packed lunches if children didn't have school meals.

I also batch cook meals so when we do have a busy day then I have meals ready cooked etc.

What core hours do you work outside the home LisaLisa - is there a reason why the employee would have to work until 8?

If you want to employ a part-time nanny from 3-8pm but for the first hour and a half she'll be expected to do chores then from 4.30pm it'll be tea-time(ish) then presumably wind-down/bath/reading that kind of thing then bed, I don't see much childcare going on there. To me it looks as if you need a Mother's help, not a qualified nanny

Some great advice already on this thread, but to add in, I think this job sounds terrifying and overwhelming - I think that's why you are struggling to hold someone down - think about it - would you take this job on, if you weren't actually the parent of the children? It's like being a SAHM with a partner who is never home before 8pm and who leaves the house at 7am - you'd be on your knees without a bit of help and respite - especially doing contractual evenings as well - no time to properly "relax" and be on down time. Ok - that's the honest response - now some practical thoughts:

I think you need more than one employee. I would hire a cleaner separately to do the basics once a week. Sod the rest - life will go on.

I would talk to friends with kids and get separate babysitter recommendations. All your kids are now old enough not to be phased by a new face, and the older ones are there to keep the younger ones feeling secure.

Per Helsbels4 - do you really need your nanny before you go to work? Is there not a creative bit of networking to be done with getting them to school via friends and or neighbours? If you can get them dressed (don't envy you, I struggle with two, and only one of them is actually required to be out of the door by 8.45am).

Good luck.

Mrswobble - excellent ideas again there - thank you. I'm so used to thinking how can I best please/retain services of nanny etc/ not overstress them that I'm not used to thinking creatively as to task allocation that suits me rather than them.

Yes, I will alternate hoovering with ironing.

I am chewing over your idea as to babysitting and nanny leaving early but I don't know which day s I need b/sitting and I don't want to upset nanny by announcing that she will earn less that week as we are going out etc.

twims > You sound amazingly well organised and I hope your mummyboss appreciates you! I think your type of help will not be enough for me though as i am not sahm - i work from 8.00am to 3.00pm and also i have 5 dcs so cleaning and laundry load inevitably heavier.

Sycamore - you make it sound awful ! It is not that bad as nanny does have a lot of time left in day for herself - I ask only 3 hours work between 9.00am and 4.30pm.

helsbells - there is a lot of sole charge between these hours as i am always running around with kids and frequently involves homework , feeding, playing board games etc. Don't forget my dcs are a bit older and don't all go to bed at 7.oopm so older ones can still be playing monopoly at 8.00pm. Lots of childcare here hence my frustratoin wtih current nanny who avoids the kids and only wants to dust!

In my experience, nanny-housekeeper roles don't work. You either get someone who is good with the housekeeping but not keen on the children (as you seem to have) or someone who really wants to be with the children and finds the housekeeping a chore. Added to that in your job seems to be the problems of very long hours (even with the time off in the day, the early starts and late finishes, plus babysits, are very draining) and the confusion between sole/shared charge in the evenings.

thanks willow - I have found this thread literally invaluable for pointing out what should lhave been fairly easy to see I suppose but what has been obscurred by years of nannies/aupairs and everything in between and trying to please everyone and anyone and not me!!

I actually think if you were prepared to have foreign nannies (maybe Australians/NZ/SA) who only wanted to stay for 12 months, and a daily cleaner, it might be a better solution. But it would mean recruiting every year.

I am looking at the hours you said. I am sure that is really a 1.5 person job.

To provide cover for 13 hours per day x 5 days per week is 65 hours. On top of that you say evening baby sitting as well and at weekend.

I know the nanny is not actually working all those hours - but looks like she is not actually allowed to leave the house so is technically 'working'.

The person doing this job has almost no real time to themselves.

Maybe you could say offer an arrangment where you employ a cleaner and then arrange for repairmen, etc to vist in the morning so the nanny has her afternoon off before picking up children.

I think your nannys are leaving because it really does not sound like much of a life. I suspect they probably go to employers who allow them more regular hours.

Apologies if I got the wrong end of the stick.

13hrs a day plus 3nights babysitting is a lot and tbh no nanny/hk would want to do that

i like the idea of an ap, cleaner and after school nanny

lisalisa - have you factored in school holidays to your revised plan? on the face of it AP doing mornings and p-t nanny doing the late shift sounds great - but wouldn't it only work in term time?

I think you might have to be open-minded too, re hours, from the nanny's pov. 25 hours a week isn't much, and nannies might find it hard to find a job to fill the other hours - esp as they are spread across 5 days, iyswim.

I do also think that lots of nannies like being with little ones, and like being in charge of daily activities etc - getting out to toddler groups etc. if you're around, albeit ferrying etc, it does sound a bit more like a mothers-help type job (not that labels are that important - what's important is agreeing with prospective employees what the job entails)

one thing you could think about (to solve the holidays issue and make the job more attractive) is a contract with different term-time and holiday hours. tot up an annual total of hours and divide by 52 to come up with a regular weekly salary. some nannies might like this - some might not. It would up the total hours but would make it even harder to supplement with another job.

also are you sure about £10 an hour including tax - that's very cheap for a live out nanny.

one last thing - I'd recommend speaking to the lovely people at Simply Childcare - you can advertise your job with them, but they also advise you on framing the advert, and on matching what you need with what other people are offering. I've seen jobs advertised with titles like "third/surrogate parent" which could be the type of thing that could help you get the right person.