APs and staying out late - any advice?

[MizZan]

We have a lovely 19 YO German au pair who is really a delightful person, very nice with the kids, reasonably helpful around the house and generally seems (or seemed) like a sensible, responsible person, given her very young age.

My problem is this - she has started staying out very very late (like 2, 3 AM) during weeknights, and (I think) possibly staying out all night once or twice and then coming back in before she's meant to start work at 7:30. It seems she's met A BOY - which is very nice of course.

Now - on weekends, I don't have a huge issue with this, though ideally I'd like her to let us know if she's staying out all night so we don't worry. But - I'm not so ok with it during the week. I feel like if she has to be up and ready for work (which involves childcare and school/nursery runs for 2 little ones, so not just mindless cleaning) at 7:30, she should be home at a reasonable hour the night before, and also I just want the peace of mind of knowing that she's home and safe and that she will actually definitely be there and functional at 7:30 the next morning - it's just not something I want to spend time stressing about, iykwim.

I sat her down earlier this week and had a chat to her about this as she'd been out till about 4 the night before, and she insisted it was just a one-off as this boy she'd met was about to leave for parts unknown, and said it wouldn't happen again, and was very apologetic. BUT - I then had to travel for business overnight, got home at midnight last night to find the house asleep (or so I thought), latched the door, only to be roused at 1:15 AM by the AP ringing the bell because she'd been out and couldn't get in. She apologised this morning for waking me up, and said she'd told DH she'd be out late, but it was as if that earlier conversation about not staying out late on work nights had just never happened.

So I don't know whether I was just too nice in our chat, or whether I really have to set a firm curfew during the week, or whether I am just being unreasonable, or what. Keep in mind that other than this, we are happy with her, and given my work situation (and DH basically working very long hours so not around to provide back-up at all), it would be a real challenge not to mention disruptive for the children (who like her) if we have to replace her at short notice. But I'm not happy with this behaviour or with the fact that she pretty much ignored my "nicely" telling her not to do this once already. I have no experience with this as our previous APs just never did this. What do the rest of you do about this issue?

Oh Lucy, no worries. I am sure the children you care for will in their heart-of-hearts never forget you. You were there in their formative years and will have left something behind in their makeup. They just have such short memories and can be terribly ungrateful! Better to be the fun aupair than the naggy parent.

goodness, lots of messages on this one.

have talked to DH, who was in favour of giving her a very harsh talking-to - naturally he is not the one whose work will suffer if she then ups and leaves unexpectedly...

feeling stupid for not having put this in house rules but as I said, we have just not had this situation with previous au pairs - now I know better. Previous ones were all a bit older and all had previous AP experience, maybe that's the difference.

hmm. As far as tiredness affecting her duties, I am honestly not around enough to say - she is still getting up on time, and seems ok, and we don't need her to drive, but honestly no one is going to function well on a few hours sleep esp. when it's more than once during the week. That said, I also often only manage a few hours sleep myself, so that's part of the reason I feel strange telling her she needs more in order to look after the kids effectively.

I should be around more the next few weeks so can keep a better eye on things. I think I will just say "I assume you'll be home before midnight" when she leaves to go out tonight and hopefully that will get the point across without being too harsh.

Mizzan, sounds like a good plan.

I would find it very difficult to tell an ap I expected her home and in bed by a certain time when she was 'off duty'. I'm trying to work out why - but maybe because I have employed a young nanny previously and I had to trust that she was up to the job when she turned up, since I had no idea what she had been up to the night before.
When your ap has stayed out all night, do you think she has stayed awake or simply gone back to Boy's house and slept there? Has she many duties during the daytime or is she spending half the day asleep - if so, she may not be sleep deprived??

Our AP is generally at home from 9.30 whatever the night, with the exception of when she goes out after her English class with her classmates - I have no idea when she gets back then since I am asleep..but if it was 5am for example, I would expect her to go back to bed after putting kids on the school bus.

looking for advice on what to do with current AP.

She is a lovely girl (with lots of problems at home, in her life, eating problems etc.) BUT

she has now been here 2 weeks - i am at home with her full time and she is hear as a luxury at the moment as i am on mat leave and having a c-section so we really need someone in Jan but she is here before so the children can get to know her. Anyway - all she has to do is be with 5 yr old from 7 and then take him to school - i am here with her but looking after DS2 and then i go on school run with her.
Last night we had another 'chat' as she is not eating, going to the gym for 3 hours a day and not doing her chores (she only has to sweep the kitchen floor, tidy the breakfast things away and unload the dishwasher) once a week she has to tidy play room and move boys washing from their room to laundry downstairs (i do the washing etc.)- that is it, no cooking, no cleaning (except her own bathroom, living room and bedroom) - she is paid £80 per week for this plus we pay for language school, fare here, phone, petrol etc. - anyway i had a hospital appointment this morning so we said to her last night at our 'chat' that she would not be needed in the morning but that we would need her to be back here by 1pm to go for a driving lesson - she is not back. She has been here two weeks has avoided driving and we NEED a driver - i need her to start driving from next week. She has been on school and nursery run with me every day for 2 weeks and still does not know it - it is one road all the way there - 4 miles.
She is driving me crazy - am i being unreasonable to expect her to be here on time and to complete her tasks and to expect her to eat so she has energy to function

hi englishspringer, short answer is get rid Two weeks is enough time to decide this is a keeper or not. From what you describe, she is clearly not on too many fronts.

You are paying over the going rate for below average hours. You have taken two weeks to get her into routine (mine get two days) and she is not performing.

I am with blueshoes, this is a no brainer.

Just about to start a new thread in this area, please don't send her my way!

You need to set a time I told my AP that she had to be home by midnight on working nights simply beause she has a 6am start. When she comes in late doesnt matter how quiet she is (my kids are light sleepers) they hear the door opening and it disturbs their sleep.

I also found with the last one that she was very haphazard getting the kids ready cos she was so tired the minute she had dropped them to nursery she was in bed! Because this one drives I'm not taking a risk she needs to be alert and awake.

As for the OP what is AP doing????? She needs to understand exactly why you have employed her!!!! Have words or get rid....You'll need all the help ou can get after you C section

thanks for the advice - i kind of thought that but because i am preg thought that i would ask some 'rational' thinking people! seriously i feel like our house is an internet cafe and that is it - she has been home since 4pm (we were out at kiddy party) and she has not swept the floor from brekkie (just round table), left the iron switched on and full of water in the kitchen, left apple on the worktop - hung her white bedlinen on the stained wooden banisters(they now hae brown stains on them ) and because she was out at the gym all day she still hasn't driven. She is out all day tomorrow and sunday - Monday she could drive but on Tuesday i need her to be able to drive my children to nursery and school as i have to go to work for a half day to do final handovers etc. - at the moment feeling sick about the prospect of trusting her to get them there safely!

ES - I had one AP where I wasn't too confident about her driving so she had a two session with a driving instructor.

OK, easy for me as FiL is the instructor, but can you book something similar before Tuesday to force the issue?

sorry should be two hour session - not two sessions

englishspringer I agree with DIOM and blueshoes.

Pull her up on the things she has done wrong today or else she will think it doesn't matter (have experience of aps spoiling/damaging stuff and not caring.) Ideally do it straight away but if you haven't, decide what you're going to say and sit her down and tell her at the next good opportunity. She could be simply nervous about driving or else perhaps she can't drive on the left. Whichever, you need to be absolutely sure she is capable of driving by Tuesday or else you'll need to ask a friend or get a taxi for her and the children. She isn't doing her (very light) chores and she wasn't back by the set time. It's not working at all. You need to tell her now that she is there to help you and her behaviour is actually making her a hindrance. It is horrible having to correct ap's behaviour and it's one reason why this one is my second one and also my last.

I was an au pair many moons ago and frequently stayed out until 2/3 am in some cases. I was always back in time for school run, etc. and I was not 'out and clubbing' or having a great time the entire time. I once didn't get in until 4 am because I fell asleep at boyfriend's house (this was an occurence every night I was out past 1am) and didn't wake up until that time.

I actually felt it was more responsible to get myself up and on the night bus back to ensure I wasn't late for the school run than to stay there until 6.30/7 when all buses/trains are running late and possibly miss my start time.

The mum and I didn't agree at all, she wanted me in at a certain time, didn't allow any guests over (EVER), and was overly harsh, so I left.

Just be careful! Remember, she may be young, but she is an adult, one that you trust with your children no less, and can manage her time effectively. Like others have said, if you had a live-out au pair, you would have no idea what time she went to bed so think it's a bit unfair to impose this rule on her. Only exception would be if she were waking you or your children in the night.

Oh blimey ES..... so you're paying and having someone living with you and they contributing.... nothing
I totally agree with Simply, you must sit down and very matter of fact go through all the things that aren't right. You hardly need her to do anything, yet she's not managing that. And don't leave it in future..next time you come in and the floor's unswept, tell her straight away.
As for the driving. Do not let her drive the dc's next week. Book a taxi. I always have had a driving instructor take AP's out as well, so they can tell me if there are major problems, what needs practising etc. Book her a lesson on Monday, they might say she's a complete no go, which has happened to me before.
Sorry If I seem harsh...just concern

as she lives in it is different,and waking you up via the doorbell/forgetting key etc is annoying

but i dont think it is any of my employers business what time i go out/go to bed etc as long as I am fit and capable for work the following day

i do night nannying and sleep training and there are times that i work all day, then go and work a night and then back to my day job the next day

An au pair is NOT an employee, despite what several posters have said. A nanny is, that's why she is paid her more and the employer is liable for her maternity pay and so on.
I am not defending the OP AP's behaviour, just pointing out a fact.

Remembering she is not an employee gives a more fruitful way of solving the problems. She is an adult living in your home, so thinking of how you'd expect any adult staying in your home to behave and what rules you'd set about coming and going is good place to start.

Several ex-APs have made the valuable point that if they come and late and are ready for duty in the morning, then that's' really their affair. Ringing the bell to get you up is a PITA and no repeats is essential.

ES, your AP sounds the pits - hope it works out.

An aupair is a young adult, usually in her late teens or freshly out. She is often living outside her family home for the first time. The host family is in loco parentis to a certain extent.

Therefore, the dynamics with an aupair are different from with a nanny. A nanny is adult, an employee, a professional who is expected to perform her job with minimal guidance. An aupair needs a lot more handholding and care, almost like a teenage niece come to stay. Hence, I will need to be more specific in setting limits, partly due to her youth and partly due to her inexperience. It is the sort of role that she can expect me to give her a lot more guidance than a nanny will be expected to get. She will need it.

The difficulty with saying that an aupair is still bright and ready the next day to perform her duties whatever time she goes to bed the previous day is that in my household, and I suspect in others where both parents WOHM, I am not around to actually see how she performs her duties during the day. So even if she is up on time, how do I know if she is fully alert when in charge of my children? If her attention is not on the road during the school run, it is not a risk I am prepared to take with a young person if she is late home night after night.

The odd late night with prior notice is fine, but anything which makes me question whether she is chronically sleep deprived would result in a 'chat' and some limits.

thanks for all the advice - the lesson was with an instructor and she didn't turn up. I think the main problem is after talking with her that she has come here to get away from MANY problems back in France - her father is an abusive alcoholic, her so-called BF is just using her for sex and she only likes him because he is rich. She has done lots of modelling in the past and is spending a min of 2 hrs working out (not just at the gym but actually doing exercise) plus she is only eating breakfast of natural yoghurt, no lunch and then veg for dinner. she sleeps when she is not working out and wears a bobble hat and scarf around the house all the time.
We sat down and spoke with her and told her that she had it easy and that we only gave her minimum hrs. she said she knew - listened and took it all in. So we went out y'day - she said she would sweep the floor, tidy her bedroom and bathroom - we came home this morning - she is out still which is not a problem for me BUT the floor has STILL not been swept, the heating & emersion hot water was left on constant, 6 lights left on, food left on top of freezer (she obviuosly got something out and out things on top whilst doing it and forgot to put back), toast still in toaster, bin over-flowing, dishes on work surface not in dishwasher, bedroom -OMG i just put my head around the door - you have neve seen anything like it - it really annoys me because she has gorgeous furniture, lovely linen & curtains etc. - a new laptop and NO RESPECT - i just feel that the last week has been nothing but a moaning session from us - can you pls do this, you need to be thinking about that etc. - when she comes home today we have decided to help her find anothe family - she is a lovely girl but just not right for our family - i am having c-section in 6 weeks and need someone reliable to 'help' and to 'drive' the school/nursery run - i am thinking about a nanny for a month - we have had nannies b4 so OK with that. However, we have also had AP's b4 - never any probs until last 2! think my luck has run out

english -if you have had a chat and things arent any better, then get rid of her

your idea to get a nanny in for a month or so sounds good - an AP shouldnt have sole charge of children under 3, so if you want some help with your new baby once born - esp if you are having a c section and will find lifting/driving hard/not allowed for 6 weeks then a nanny will be the ideal solution till you are back on your feet

Hi english, I am sorry your AP has had such a troubled homelife but you are not a half way house. I am putting my head in my hands in despair on your behalf reading about her.

It will actually be tricky to get rid of her as I can imagine she would not want to go back to her home situation. But it is not working for you big big time, particularly her misleading you on the driving front which makes her a non-starter on that basis alone.

Out of interest, why is she out so much if she has only just arrived in the UK? Is she already planning her escape and is only using you as a staging post in the meantime, hence the half hearted attempts to improve.

You don't want to waste any more time with her. Immediate dismissal will cost you but it is the safest and most secure way of doing it, esp since you only know her for 2 weeks and she could be unstable.

I would just tell her it is not working and pay her 1-2 week's pocket money and (this is up to you) lodger's rent to stay in your area (ideally you should have called up in advance to ensure a room is available) or airfare home, whichever is more, give her reasonable time to pack, and chauffeur her to the room/airport pronto. Take the housekeys off her immediately on notice and don't leave the house in the meantime.

I am embarrassed to be so harsh - I am prepared to be flamed. But if you feel you have had enough time to have a good enough handle on her character and mental health, you could give her more time to find another family whilst living with you. Because you cannot give her a good reference, you cannot help her to find a new family.

ES - Blue has it 100% right, for your own health's sake she has to go immediately, how many second chances does she get, by reckoning she is down to about her fourteenth. Also don't see how you could help her find another family - what would you say to them?

Blueshoes is right, as is dad; yes she must go, and no, you can't recommend her to another family.

I'm just seconding blue, dad et al. You have no idea how she'll react, and quite frankly you've done more than enough for her. Not turning up for the driving lesson just about says it all, she has no respect for you.
Please don't try and find her another family, would you really want someone else to put up with this?

I agree with the others. I know it will be stressful having to tell her and making sure that she just takes her own belongings etc but it has to be done. The relief of not having a stressful-to-live-with person in your home anymore is tremendous.

Good luck with it all.

MN won't let me read to end of thread, keeps sending me back to pg 2 for some reason. So, someone might already have said this, but my main problem with an AP that came in at 4am on a fairly regular basis would be security. OP mentioned that she uses a latch; that latch would be off for most of the night. If the house were turned over, the insurance would be invalidated. Our house rules stipulate back by 12 weeknights. We know when APs return because dogs bark. Another reason I don't want it to be in the early hours!