APs and staying out late - any advice?

[MizZan]

We have a lovely 19 YO German au pair who is really a delightful person, very nice with the kids, reasonably helpful around the house and generally seems (or seemed) like a sensible, responsible person, given her very young age.

My problem is this - she has started staying out very very late (like 2, 3 AM) during weeknights, and (I think) possibly staying out all night once or twice and then coming back in before she's meant to start work at 7:30. It seems she's met A BOY - which is very nice of course.

Now - on weekends, I don't have a huge issue with this, though ideally I'd like her to let us know if she's staying out all night so we don't worry. But - I'm not so ok with it during the week. I feel like if she has to be up and ready for work (which involves childcare and school/nursery runs for 2 little ones, so not just mindless cleaning) at 7:30, she should be home at a reasonable hour the night before, and also I just want the peace of mind of knowing that she's home and safe and that she will actually definitely be there and functional at 7:30 the next morning - it's just not something I want to spend time stressing about, iykwim.

I sat her down earlier this week and had a chat to her about this as she'd been out till about 4 the night before, and she insisted it was just a one-off as this boy she'd met was about to leave for parts unknown, and said it wouldn't happen again, and was very apologetic. BUT - I then had to travel for business overnight, got home at midnight last night to find the house asleep (or so I thought), latched the door, only to be roused at 1:15 AM by the AP ringing the bell because she'd been out and couldn't get in. She apologised this morning for waking me up, and said she'd told DH she'd be out late, but it was as if that earlier conversation about not staying out late on work nights had just never happened.

So I don't know whether I was just too nice in our chat, or whether I really have to set a firm curfew during the week, or whether I am just being unreasonable, or what. Keep in mind that other than this, we are happy with her, and given my work situation (and DH basically working very long hours so not around to provide back-up at all), it would be a real challenge not to mention disruptive for the children (who like her) if we have to replace her at short notice. But I'm not happy with this behaviour or with the fact that she pretty much ignored my "nicely" telling her not to do this once already. I have no experience with this as our previous APs just never did this. What do the rest of you do about this issue?

Perhaps she thought 1.15am wasnt really late. You ought to tell her that during the week she needs to be home by a certain time and stick to it as she has to be alert for her duties the next day.

She is your employee, staying in YOUR house. You set the rules.

BTW Ive never had an AP before, but I do have German students, normally 17 YO stay in our home for a few months at a time, and from the outset tell them rules and regs so that there is no hassle further down the line. Hope this helps a bit .

Hi Mizzan, I would set a firm curfew for Sun to Thurs nights which you and dh agree with her in advance, perhaps midnight or 1 am at a push? With a probationary period to monitor whether it is affecting her duties the next day to come back so late, particularly if she is going to push it to 1 am on a regular basis. I would be matter-of-fact, rather than apologetic, about it.

You have valid reasons to require this. It is not unreasonable to require her to meet her boyfriend on weekends with shorter dates during the week. I would make an exception and allow her to stay out later on a one-off basis (eg boyfriend going away for a long time).

Even now, have these late nights been affecting her duties eg is she waking up on time, has she been forgetful whereas she was more attentive in the past?

For future, put it in your house rules. I stipulate in my rules the aupair must come home at a reasonable time if she has early morning duties the next day (7 am start at my house). Otherwise she only needs to let me know when she comes home. I baulked at putting an actual time (because some people have more stamina re: lack of sleep than others) but at least if it is in the house rules it can form the basis of future discussions.

Hope it works out.

She is your employee, but equally, she's not on duty at these times. It may create bad feeling to insist, although it's clear no one is at their best after 2 hours sleep.

It's very difficult. Perhaps say,

"I'm sorry I know I'm probably paranoid and unreasonable, but when you are going to be walking the kids to school could you be in by 12ish the night before? I'm so sorry to be such a drag, I am just really sensitive myself after less sleep and am worried you may be the same - it's only the kids I'm worried about - I don't want to boss you around too much".

I know this seems overly sensitive, but you have to live with each other 24/7, so preserving good feeling should be regarded very highly if you want to keep her.

She is your employee, but equally, she's not on duty at these times. It may create bad feeling to insist, although it's clear no one is at their best after 2 hours sleep.

It's very difficult. Perhaps say,

"I'm sorry I know I'm probably paranoid and unreasonable, but when you are going to be walking the kids to school could you be in by 12ish the night before? I'm so sorry to be such a drag, I am just really sensitive myself after less sleep and am worried you may be the same - it's only the kids I'm worried about - I don't want to boss you around too much".

I know this seems overly sensitive, but you have to live with each other 24/7, so preserving good feeling should be regarded very highly if you want to keep her.

Did she ignore your "nice" chat, or did she actually come in earlier as you requested - 1am instead of 4am?

Tbh, she's an adult and should be able to organise her own time how she sees fit - the only thing you can comment on is how she performs her duties. Is she awake, alert, on time and competent when she's working? If so then you need to let her get on with it. If she's turning up late, grumpy, or hungover then you can talk to her about that.

I was an au pair when I was 20, and my boss worked odd shifts, sometimes having to leave at 3am for example. I'd still go out the night before but always got home at least half an hour before I was on duty, always did my job well. I'm glad my boss treated me like an adult rather than a wayward child, and I'm still in touch with her and the children now.

Hi Lucy, I agree about the give-and-take and preserving feelings.

Whether the aupair is an employee or member of the family or a bit of both, some messages have to be said so long as the aupair lives under Mizzan's roof. Sadly Mizzan has to reel things back a bit simply because, I assume, she did not have a house rule to this effect. But you cannot provide for every eventuality in house rules and such situations will arise.

IMO the self-deprecating language about being paranoid, unreasonable and sensitive is rather wishywashy and shall I say, 'British'. For Germans particularly, it is best to be straightforward and get to the point, giving reasons. If it is a firm limit, say it is a firm limit (with an initial monitoring period). Otherwise, it is not fair to blame the aupair if she continues with a case-by-case approach.

I attended a cultural awareness course so forgive me for stereotyping but the course leader was German and told this to me. I have had a lovely German aupair myself.

An aupair is supposed to be treated as a member of the family. If my teenage daughter had school the next day, I would not be shy to impose a mutually agreed curfew if she started taking the piss. Them's the breaks if you live under someone's roof.

Funnily enough, I am actually Australian. And we are known for being very direct.

When I was 18, I lived in Chelsea and was an au pair, albeit paid a nanny's wage, given my accent and family background (disgraceful I know - but why else pay a 18 year old with virtually no experience 300 quid a week, live in with no household duties).

I used to behave as the OP is describing. London was so exciting and I had lots of friends. I still did my job well, but probably not as well as I would of with 6-7 hours sleep. My employer spoke to me firmly, and I gave a months notice. Had she been a bit more wishy washy, I probably would have stayed. I'm aware that's not very reasonable, but a lot of 18 year olds aren't.

Not ideal, but nor is relying on a teenage for any type of reliable childcare, IMO. If you want her to stay - I would recommend being as nice as possible about it, as opposed to 'firm'.

Lucy, fair point. Being firm could cause Mizzan to lose her aupair. There is always that risk.

But as Mizzan said "... it would be a real challenge not to mention disruptive for the children (who like her) if we have to replace her at short notice", I feel replacing the aupair is already on Mizzan's mind. It would be on my mind as well if it seriously affected the childcare side of the aupair's duties (as opposed to the housekeeping side) and the balance of the household.

If an aupair wanted to total freedom to come and go, then it would be better if she got a bedsit and, say, took a waitressing/bar job, which is what some aupairs move on to. But if you live with a family as an aupair as an easy springboard to enjoy a country, then it comes with restrictions.

Yes, I totally agree that if you want to go out a lot in the evenings you are not suited to being an au pair.

Although, replacing an au pair who otherwise fits well with the family might not be what the OP ultimately wants. As young girls are often quite emotional/temperamental if the OP approached the situation carefully, it COULD be resolved - IMO, by tiptoeing around the issue slightly.

If the au pair sees it as in the interest of employee/au pair relations, and doesn't feel confronted/controlled - she might decide it is a good idea to come home when requested.

Problem solved, rather than the children being forced to adapt to a new situation, that may not have been necessary?

It's difficult this...one of my long term AP's started doing this when she met a bloke.
I told her very clearly that there was no way she was on the ball to look after the dc's after 2 or 3 hours sleep and driving them to school was potentially dangerous.
Sun - Thursday she had to be in the house by midnight, Fri and Sat she could do what she liked, go where she liked, with whoever she liked including having them stay here. This swiftly went in my house rules.
How firm you are on this, really depends on how serious you think it is, and if you've seen her work slacking or she's tired.

and I would be saying
"I'm really sorry AP, but I don't think I made myself very clear the other day, I am really worried about you staying out so late during the week. Not just for your own safety, but you do understand you are responsible for the most important things in my world. I worry that you will be tired / forgetful and an accident will happen. I know you adore the dc's and we love having you here so can you please reassure me that you will come in at a reasonable time during the week. of course at weekends you are free to do what you like....."

Totally agree with that point - Ingles. If driving, it must stop STRAIGHT away, no ifs or buts about it.

Research I was looking into this week has shown that 24 hours of sleep deprivation (0-3 hours sleep) has the equivalent effects of a blood alcohol level of 0.08!

Your wording is much better than what I suggested, perfect.

The problem with tip-toeing that is that AP has already ignored Mizzan's first 'chat' by staying out till 1 am after promising OP it would not happen again. OP is now questioning whether she was too nice and not firm enough.

The tipping point is how badly are the AP's duties affected by these late nights and how disruptive and unsettling is it for OP to have the AP trip home at unknown hours every night, particularly with her and dh's travel and work situation. Only the OP can answer that.

I will sound harsh, but I have little appetite for pussyfooting around aupairs' feelings too much. If there is a problem, I just say so in real time (or after a day or two, after consulting dh, without too much stewing) in a very matter-of-fact and non-confrontational way. Whether it is regularly coming home late or forgetting to wash the sink.

With my first aupair, I was a bit wishywashy, but now I just say it like it is. I also keep communication lines open and I am home from 4 pm everyday to be a familiar, rather than distant, figure. If my direct and frank attitude grates, then it is a valid reason for the aupair to move on, sooner rather than later, which is my preference.

Advantage is it is much more in keeping with my own personality. And my philosophy with aupairs is that they are here for a short time. Whatever happens, I am not likely to have them for more than a year. I WANT them to be happy for that time and if they are not, it is best for us and them to move on. No hard feelings, there is the right family for every good aupair. I have my welcome pack and houserules and well-oiled aupair hiring technique. Plus being in London means there are more aupairs who will want the role.

I like frank-speaking aupairs. My current one is Swedish. I am sure she will tell me if she thought I was nuts or have left by now.

As for children being unsettled by change, I don't think so. Whilst fond of them, my dd 5 can barely remember the name of our last aupair who stayed for a year - I showed her an old photo recently. And the changeover has always gone without hitch on dcs' part. They know which side their bread is buttered.

Thanks Lucy.
Can you tell I've had just a few of these sorts of chats over the years.

you are totally right... our last AP came to visit at the weekend, dc's barely gave her a glance she only left 6 weeks ago.

"As for children being unsettled by change, I don't think so. Whilst fond of them, my dd 5 can barely remember the name of our last aupair who stayed for a year - I showed her an old photo recently. And the changeover has always gone without hitch on dcs' part. They know which side their bread is buttered."

But that makes it sound like you only have these girls for cheap childcare? Surely you want them to be a sustaining and positive influence in your DCs' lives? I know a year isn't long, but it's long enough!

I don't mean to be unnecessarily argumentative, but you only seem to see things from your perspective as the employer; whereas, IMO it could be advantageous to see things from the other side also. You may get the desired effect as a result of being very upfront / strict, but you may also cause the AP to feel intimidated/unhappy/unconsidered as a result, even if they do stay.

But Lucy, Blueshoes is talking about how the dc's view the AP's not us...we can't influence them.

I am always learning from your posts!

Hi Lucy, yes, I do sound one-sided on the issue of aupair's feelings. I am a softie at heart but realist in execution.

Living in with someone is an adjustment for both the family and the aupair. IMO personality fit is also important. I do ask about my aupair's day and take an interest in her friends (if she is happy to tell me - I respect her feelings and privacy). It is not as if every conversation is to pull her up on some infraction. We do laugh and joke. But work is work.

Some aupairs like to be mothered, others want their space. Some prefer a softly softly approach you are describing, others simply want to know the limits and get on with it. Some like to discuss feelings, others positively cringe at the thought. I can adjust to a certain extent, but the last thing I want to do when problems arise is stew and explode.

I am prepared for my aupair to give me notice at any time, which judging by some of the threads on mn is not a bad idea. But so long as she is with me, she is there because I always always want her to stay. I do like all my aupairs and take the time to settle them in and make them feel at home but I cannot make them happy and I do need them to perform the (childcare side of) duties to a reasonable standard.

Lucy, as for your comment on cheap childcare, I don't use my aupair as a nanny. My ds 2 goes to ft nursery. My dd 5 goes to ft school. I am home by 4 pm every day. I can function (just about) without an aupair.

She is the icing on the cake, but ultimately dispensible. Childcare-wise, she is there to do the schoolrun and play with the dcs.

My aupair is having a ball of a time with loads of friends she spends time with during the day (outside of duties) and at night (even weeknights). I am very happy about that. I don't think she sees herself as cheap childcare, I certainly don't. She is an extra pair of hands.

ingles2

I'm sorry if you interpreted my comments as a personal attack, not intended at all. You raise some very interesting points.

I am probably over sensitive to the issue, based on my love for the children I care for. I'd be devastated to think I was just a passing phase, although I probably am

Haven't had time to read all the posts, but we have a rule in our (reasonably short) list of house rules for our AP which is home by midnight on nights when you are starting work at 8am the next day. As she only starts at 8 on 3 mornings per week, I don't think it's unfair. I've stretched it to 1am with our current AP as she's a little older and v sensible. The rest of the time she can come and go as she likes.