How is it fair?

[princessfiona]

How is it fair?

1. To expect someone to work for 10-12 hours a day looking after your children for so little money?

2. Would you do it for so little money?

3. Even if they come from a country not as wealthy as UK or USA etc.

4. Do you think they should have a pay increase?

5. I know that it is allowed legally to pay under the minimum wage but does it mean that looking after your children is worth so little?

6. If your daughter went to another country would you want them to be treated in the same way and paid the same?

7. How much time off do they have? Whole weekends without babysitting?

But when you are home, you have a job outside the home? One where your young children would not be welcomed?

PF didn't you say you are a mother's help? Surely that is a job.

Uwila, yes, I am stalking you
(nice that we are both working so hard today....)

no cos I gave up

CD sorry I thought I said in past tense

Ah, yes CD, priorities, you know. Mumsnet first and foremost.

PF, so let me see if I've got this? You are not new to Mumsnet. You gave up your job outside the home (whatever it was). But, you have come on here today to question working parents for 1- not paying there aupairs and nanny's enough money, and 2- to question the very choice that we are at work... whilst you on the other hand are living up the summer sun in cape town.

Perhaps I was mistaken about your intentions not being malicious. I think maybe you did know full well that you were inciting a riot. SHAME ON YOU.

Sorry, but everytime I see the name Princessfiona I can only think of Shrek's wife.

I work from home very part time and am now not working and waiting for baby no2. In the past I've employed a childminder and had a three day a week nannyshare - and I don't recognise any of this 12hours a day, less than minimum wage stuff that PF implies is the norm.
Until a few weeks ago (when he started nursery two mornings a week), for the past 18months, my son (3.5) was looked after by my mum two mornings a week and by his father three days a month. I probably 'count' as a SAHM in terms of time spent with my child, but I still find it absolutely infuriating and insulting to see working mothers treated like bizarre freaks who are neglecting and damaging their kids. Or whose choices are totally inexplicable except in terms of selfishness.

PrincessFiona, no-one as far as I can see has argued that making an au pair work long hours/have considerable responsibility for little pay is fair or should be done. Nannies' pay more properly reflects the skills and responsibility they have and the fact that this is their career rather than a temporary role. Whilst some au pairs are taken advantage of by their host family, others definitely are not.

But I also wanted to mention that taking advantage of an au pair isn't limited to this country. One young (English) girl I know arrived in Italy as au pair (not nanny) to a family who lived out in the country - they took off on holiday the next day leaving her in sole charge of twins aged 3 (who spoke no English and she no Italian) and a baby of about 6 months old. There were a couple of other staff around, but equally they spoke no English. Mother didn't work either.

Princess Fiona, I have an aupair from Eastern Europe. She works 40hrs a week for me in return for pay, board & lodging, food, gym membership & unlimited use of internet.
I have an aupair because I go to work, because now I am a single mummy - I have to!!!
I'm sure their are some families who do take advantage of their aupairs - shame on them. Sadly, human nature being what it is, in all areas of life, some people do get exploited.
I don't exploit my aupair, infact sometimes I wish I was her, as she disappears off to the gym every morning, rocks in at 4am when she doesn't have to work the next day, doesn't have to worry about the leaking pipe under the sink, doesn't have to pay the bills etc etc etc!!!!

I probably 'count' as a SAHM in terms of time spent with my child, but I still find it absolutely infuriating and insulting to see working mothers treated like bizarre freaks who are neglecting and damaging their kids

I agree entirely - I don't work - haven't since I've been married pre children. And as I mentioned below I know some working mum's who spend BETTER quality time with their kids than I as a SAHM do! It's all too easy to get into a 'rut' when you're at home 24/8 with them whereas when you have 'limited' time with them you're more likely to make it extra special

And IME Mumsnetters tend - on the whole - to be extremely scrupulous in their employment of childcarers, both in terms of hours and pay and in paying maternity leave etc.

oops meant 24/7 in my last post (although it feels like 24/8 sometimes)

Thanks guys for your kind words of support. SAHM is of course no walk in the park either. I think that no matter what choces we make as parents, we don't appreciate having them criticised. I suppose the worst thing for any parent to have to hear is they've screwed up their kids.

I personally don't think my choices have done her (soon to be them) any damage. But, that doesn't mean I should go telling SAHMs that they should go get a job. As parents we have to have the freedom to make the decisions that we feel are best for our own children.

I have to go out now

please stop posting on this thread

It was started because of a disscussion I was having last night with cousins talking about childcare.

I really do not want you to gewt cross with me

This thread is getting stupid.

Why can't Fiona be more transparent about who she has gripes with? It's silly for everyone else to run around in circles trying to distance ourselves from people we don't know and who are very few in number.

Last thing I heard was that we weren't kidnapping girls off the streets of Warsaw or Prague and selling them into slavery. If these girls perceive that they are being exploited, it is just as much their responsibility to do something about it as it is the host family.

Au pairs aren't always truthful about their working conditions. They have a knack of making people feel sorry for them. It's better to gather facts and judge for yourself whether what they are telling you is realistic or not rather than listening to their sob stories. It's a shock for an au pair to come to the UK to think they are going to live it up in London and life isn't quite as rosy when they learn that they actually have to work for their money and that nothing is free.

and also seen as though your cousins are in SA (at least I assumed from your post you meant THEY live in SA) of course things are different there. It's quite common for the 'maids' (and at risk of sounding posh - which we weren't we had a maid in Zim) to be paid very low wages and expected to work long hours often including sole responsbility of the childcare. BUT that's the way it is - maids earn low wages - full stop.

Have said probably too much about this on similar threads in the past but what PF is asking does not have to result in a row about SAHM's v working mum's - the point is really about how you treat people, people who are looking after your kids, who are naturally the most important thing to you.

The fact remains that if you pay 'peanuts', one day you will get 'monkeys' and I wouldn't want a 'monkey' looking after my child. If you have an au pair and pay her fairly (whether that's in money, extra benefits, whatever) then fine. But if you know in your heart of hearts that you're 'getting away' with being cheap then IMO you're scrimping on the only thing that you can't afford to scrimp on and if it ever goes wrong you've only got yourself to blame.

Message withdrawn

I thought she meant it in the sense of why do mothers (or fathers) go back to work if it means they can't afford adequate care for their kids.

Wobbly, it went wrong when PF said why why why I just don't understand it (or something similar) in reference to mother who go to work for full days.

This thread hasn't been about fair compensation to our employees for quite a while.

thanks WSK you understand what I am trying to say

Thanks

reading all this makes me so glad I was able to use childminders! This thread has gone off on all sorts of alarming tangents.

Glad to read mumsnetters who've posted here give their nannies and au pairs generous terms and conditions. Equally sad to read how some people who au paired in their youth were exploited.

I only know of one friend who used au pairs - she usually had a new one every year. The dramas, the problems, the incidents of unfairness on both sides - what a headache for all concerned.

But if working full days means you have to leave your children with someone who isn't being paid a fair wage then I don't understand it either. Granted, paying fairly won't ensure your childcare is adequate but its a good start!!!

On a completly diff note

What do your employers think you are doing while on mumsnet?

I know it is addtitive but how do you manage to hide it?

How do you get any work done?

No anger just lighthearted and me being nosey?

But I think it was the line
"yes ok so you want to work and for your children you want them to see you work but do you wnat them to remember you working 12 hors a day and admire the fact or for them to remember playing with mum at home or going to park, frist day at school"
that got to me most. Because yeah who wouldnt like to do that whether a Mammy or Daddy but quite often we dont have a choice and I dont think PF is seeing that. I dont work because I want my daughter to remember me working 12 hours a day I work to pay the mortgage and the bills.
I do agree that if you are going to have childcare than you need to pay decent wages but that didnt seem to me to be what PF was saying. What she was saying is why is it fair of us to pay so little for childcare when in fact most people arent.