Help! What should au pairs get in London? URGENT

[majorstress]

I'm paying £80 pocket money, all food, own room with new tv, dvd and radio. 3 x 3 hours English classes a week, just paid £137 for 12 weeks. Original agreement was this would rise to £100 this month, but hours were from 2:30 to 8 pm, 2 kids one at school one at FULLTIME nursery. She has talked me into letting her knock off at 6:30, and to let her off most of the housework which is ironing. The other housework is done to the minimum, very passive and helpless about everything, doesn't seem to know how to change a bed, or hoover, or cook despite talking about it all the time. I am finding myself working non-stop doing housework as well as a full time job, and failing dismally at coping with either, with continual colds and a back injury. Now she wants me to honor the £100 part of the deal. Am I a mug? a slavedriver? Should I find someone else? Quit my job? Kill myself?

Communication, communication, communication! A lot of younger women ARE too diffident and afraid to look stupid, so don't admit they do not understand (I did that at this age too); or maybe they don't understand that they don't understand, which is how I flunked maths once. But sympathies aside, my day off and "quality time" with my girls yesterday consisted of a) taking dd1 for MMR b)dd2 insisting Mummy SIT DOWN HERE here between them while they watched tv-I immediately fell asleep sitting up. I woke up after 10 minutes and started ironing again. this is what I went through 6 cycles of IVF, 4 pregnancies and many thousands of pounds to do?

Oh, majorstress, I so feel for you. Do you pay her at the begining or end of month? I pay mine at the end of the month just in case she ever runs off mid month and leaves me in a crunch, then at least I don't have to pay her because she didn't give me the contractually obligated 4 weeks notice.

I was going to type my story of my first au pair, who sounds remarkably like yours. And, my state of mind was astonishingly like yours. I just couldn't bear the stress of it all on top of working full time. I got an au pair to make my life easier, not so I could take care of her too. So, she went home rather abruptly one day. Anyway, I won't go into the details just now because I think what you need is advice and support and not to listen to my story of personal crisis.

Remind me of your situation (I want to help):
1- hours required (how many total and what days/times)?
2- Ages of kids?
3- Her duties?
4- Where are you?
5- How soon do you need her?
6- Does it have to be a nanny/au pair or would you consider childminder?

I need mon and tues 1 kid got ready and taken to school (3 min walk) to school, and Wed through Fri 1 kid to school and one to nursery (15 min walk in buggy). I need school pickup 5 days at 3:30 and nursery 3 days at 12 (I and DH have been doing much of this, but no longer can cope with work demands). I get home about 5 pm. DDs are 2 and 4 and easy by all my friend's standards. Duties are to mind and interact with children, take each to one activity a week even just the park or library (not in place yet) keep house in order and clean, 4-5 loads of laundry per week to be dried sorted folded and put away etc etc, basically I only want to iron, shop for food and make dinner. I live in Mill Hill north London. I would like to replace her by easter as she is going home then anyway for a break (already went home for xmas and made me pay extra for her fare so she could return by the time school started). I want a live in to help with the housework but primarily to get the kids ready in the morning, if I have to do it I will be in traffic for 4 hours a day instead of 2 with my current 8 to 4 shift my boss has agreed to. I cannot do this. DH also cannot cover his staututory hours if he has to drop a kid.

okay, is the budget an issue? I think you said it was. Would you consider getting a live-in nanny and dropping the nursery? The money you save on nursery might make up the difference financially for you to move from pathetic au pair to responsible nanny. Of course moving to nanny does guarantee competance.

I realise you may have the toddler in nursery because it also functions as a place for early schooling/socialisation. It might be worth putting her name down on a few local nurseries just in case you might want to pull her our of full time nursery, get a nanny. And then nanny could take her to/from school as well as the other duties you have listed.

I think you could ask a nanny/au pair/whatever you want to call her all of the duties you listed (including ironing and definitely including swimming) if the kids are both off to school for a few hours a day.

I now have a live-in nanny who looks after my toddler from 7:00am until 7:00pm. I get dd up and she hangs out with me while I dress for work. Nanny takes over at 7:00, gives her breakfast, gets her dressed, and is responsible for her entire day. I arrange activities for them (Tumble Tots, swimming (Nanny is responsible for providing her own swim suit), etc.). DD is fed and back in her pyjamas when I arrive home at 7:00. Nanny also keeps the house tidy of DDs things, and does the whole family's laundary, including ironing. She does not put it away, though. She is not a cleaner and does not vacuum, dust, scrub floors, etc. But, she does keep the kitchen clean and this includes doing my dishes from the night before in the morning.

If I don't include the value of her room and board, I pay her less than I paid a childminder. If I do include the value of rent, it's about the same.

Like you, I require someone to get DD ready for her day, and keep the house in respectable order. I wouldn't trade it for the world. But, as you have obviously learned the hard way, as I did, a bad au pair / nanny can me a fantastic amount of work in terms of managing them. And, it is VERY difficult to manage someone whom you are not there to observe and supervise.

Grrr... typo. Moving to nanny does NOT guarantee competance. Sorry about that.

Also, there have been a few threads on here regarding sample interview questions as well as the employment contract. I have both handy. If you want them, send me a CAT and I'll be happy to e-mail them to you.

I really do have sympathy for you. My DH works away all week long. So, when things went bad for me, I was left with the whole responsibility of getting rid of one, not going to work myself for three days, and then sort out a new one as fast as I could. It was horrible. But, having the new one has made my life exactly what I had hoped it would be with the first one.

Speaking of whom, I like to name and shame. Whatever you do, do not hire a 20 year old (probably 21 now) named Lidia "Lidka" Kowalczak from Poznan Poland.

I remember telling myhusband one evening that he was gong to have to have me committed if I didn't find a support group for parents of bad au pairs. I't funny now. But, it wasn't then.

I think that your school drop off and pick up times make it very hard for an au pair. It makes the day very bitty.

I think most people with au pairs get them to do the morning and afternoon school runs, with the housework either straight after or straight before these times. This gives the au pair a large block of free time in the day. When you have the lunchtime drop off, it makes it so that she can barely do anything useful with her freetime. This is only going to make her resentful of you - or consider her day continuous and rightly ask for more money.

My au pair (I've just appointed and will be picking her up on Sunday) will be doing 8 - 10am (breakfast, school run and an hours' housework) and 3 - 6pm (school run, an hours' housework, an hours' baby sitting). When my youngest starts afternoon nursery in April, I will do the lunchtime drop-off and then all the girls can be picked up by the au pair (same school, finishing 3.15, 3.25, 3.30).

It does, now that you've clarified it, seem that your job is more suited to a nanny, or at minimum, an au pair plus.

I hasten to add that she previously had Friday off but was supposed to help until 8 on the other 4 days, as she now wants to change the knocking off time to 2 hours earlier but still wants £100 per week plus English classes (£137 for 12 weeks), so I said she has to do Fridays from 3:30 to 6 instead now.

what is a CAT please?

So let's see if I can figure this out:

Approximately...

Monday: 8 - 9 and 3 - 8 + cleaning
Tuesday: 8 - 9 and 3 - 8 + cleaning
Wednesday: 8 - 9, 12 - 1 and 3 - 8 + cleaning
Thursday: 8 - 9, 12 - 1 and 3 - 8 + cleaning
Friday: 3 - 6

Those are long hours! And it's a bit dodgy not to include the afternoons between nursery drop-off and afternoon pick-up.

A CAT (Contact Another Talker) is a private message. It's on the menu bar at the top of the page

I did do interviews using recommendations from Bestbear, and screened out several who freely admitted that they were looking for a nice English husband as they are the only ones with any manners (DH is IRISH so was rather taken aback). Her references were glowing about affinity with small children, but I can now read between the lines to what wasn't mentioned...the children will be safe if a bit bored as they sit in the house every day, while she drinks gallons of expensive herb tea with tons of expensive sweetener, cooks food only for herself leaving a mess, darns her socks and draws pictues with their art sets, and I will come home to a tip with nothing to wear or eat (the cupboards are GROANING with food, but it needs to be put on plates or cut up, and other such complex preparation.)

The thing is, Majorstress, is that the au pair shouldn't really be doing housework at the same time as looking after the children, especially when you've specified a lot of time out of the house. I know we mums do it, but an au pair isn't a mum.

You should tot up how much time you expect her to spend with the children (not including nap-times), and deduct what's left from her total hours - that's the housekeeping time. Obviously picking up is part of playing, but I don't think it's fair to expect to have the kitchen scrubbed unless you want the kids goggle-eyed in front of the TV.

How old is your au pair? If she's young, she might not "get" what's involved in running a house.

No Ameriscot she knocks off at 6 every day, and I do count the times inclusive between 12-6 on the 2 afternoons of weds and Thurs.

Monday: 8 - 9 and 3:30 - 6 + cleaning
Tuesday: 8 - 9 and 3:30 - 6 + cleaning
Wednesday: 8 - 9, 12- 6 + cleaning
Thursday: 8 - 9, 12 - 6 + cleaning
Friday: 3:30 - 6

I though it was normal for an aupair to mind children all day from 8 to 6 pm Mon to Friday, I thought this was cushy not to have to work all day, even on the 2 bitty days, we have broadband, etc., there are plenty of shops, gym nearby to make good use of the 3 hour gap on the 2 mornings. The cleaning consists of about 30 minutes work a day, which my previous 2 APs managed in less time than that, while the kids watch tv or play.

Should I not include nap times then? That's 3 hours a week too.

She has never once taken them out of the house, she wouldn't even take the 4 year old to the post office to post her granny a card, which DD would have enjoed, she just did it herself. They never even go in the garden as far as I can tell

If she's looking after the children, then nap times count in her hours. But it's OK to expect her to do housework while a child is napping.

Umm, no. If she's looking after children, she's not free to do whatever she likes. 8 - 6 M-F is 50 hours per week - double the au pair standard contract.

I think the crux of it is that I can expect, specify, demonstrate and insist, set a good example and put everything in writing, and I have. I have thought very deeply about this: I think I really really have done all I can, but she has reached 23 without ever supporting herself, whether as AP or any other responsible paid position. I think there are issues here that are not in my power to help her with.

There must be lots of parents including singles out there who work fulltime so the 50 h week of childminding jobs must be being done in some cases by APs, aren't they?.

With all due respect, Ameriscot, I disagree with your job description of au pair and nanny. There exists (or at least used to exist) an au pair visa which restricts what that person can do in terms of there role as an au pair and how many hows they can work whilst in the country. But, times have changed. And, an EU national who is hired as an "au pair" is subject to the very same employment laws as any other employee in this country. Majorstress, you can hire anyone you like (within the law of course) and ask them to work however many hours you choose, and assign them whatever duties you choose (so long as they agree to them, presumably in the contract), and you can give them a job title of "au pair", "nanny" or "ambassador to Charlie Brown" if you like. There are of course employement restrictions on non-EU residents that restrict you further.

Also, if an employee lives in your house, you are not required by law to pay them minimum wage. Although, you will find plenty of mumsnetters who pay their "nannies" more money than I could even consider. If you want to know what you can and can't do as an employer, I suggest looking at www.nannytax.co.uk (I think that's the right address?). It is very unformative. Also, a lot of people tend to quote what the agencies say are going rates. Personally, I think these numbers are inflated. I don't think people like me who avoid the agency to save money are taken into account when they run their numbers.

A CAT is a way to send me a message through mumsnet. It stands for Contact Another Talker. Link at the top of the page.

Regarding the hours, if she works until 8:00, as she is contractually bound to do, she works a 29 hour week. I know people who work double that. Also, I don't think the schedule of breaks is too unreasonable. Yes, she has a two hour break where she can't organise much of her own activities. But, aren't you paying for an English class? She could use that 2 hours to study. Seems reasonable to me.

As far as the +cleaning goes, I have assumed in my comments here that she has the time/ability to do this cleaning in the hours you list. For example, nap times, or times when your DDs are watching TV or otherwise occupying themselves. Granted a two year old can't be left alone for two long. But, I think it's reasonable to expect the au pair to say fold the laundry in the same room whilst they watch Winnie the Pooh.

majorstress, I just tried to CAT you, but you have messages blocked (I think it's the default). You need to go into your account and allow mumsnet to send you messages in your e-mail.

But the understanding for an "au pair" from EU or Commonwealth countries is that same as the Home Office definition (25 hours per week, blah blah blah). Yes, an EU citizen can work longer hours, but they would expect to get paid appropriately. Someone in sole charge of your children for up to 10 hours a day is not an au pair - it's a nanny (who should then have the appropriate training). An EU citizens can also be an au pair plus (35 hpw) or a Mother's Help (>40 hpw), but they would not be expected to have sole charge for any length of time.

Another thing to consider, do you pay her gross or net? You are not required to pay net, but it used to be common practice. So, a lot of people think you should.

Guess what I do? Gross. I do not see why nannies and au pairs should have special employment priviledges and perks that their employers don't get from their own jobs. My employees can generally expect to be treated as I am treated by my employer.