Nursery are threatening to remove my child as I questioned fees

[Girlmum1984]

My daughter turns 3 in a few weeks and we will be able to claim 30 free hours. When this happens, my consumables fee will increase from £12 a day to £29. have questioned this with management and asked for a breakdown of what this fee includes. They have listed food, nappies etc as well as a few activities (baking, PE classes, music classes). The activities listed take place twice month and so far haven’t been on the day that my child attends. All of this would never add up to £29 daily.

Unsatisfied with the response, I emailed the local council to understand how consumables fees can be issued to parents and it there were any regulations. As a result, they contacted the nursery manager and investigated. They were satisfied with the findings and basically said there are no regulations they need to follow when it comes to consumables fees and they can charge what they like. Annoying, but fine.
I have now had an official looking email from my nursery to say I have impacted the staffs mental health by making this enquiry and they are going to discuss whether our contact will be terminated as a result!
I’ve never had any issues with staff in the past and we’ve always been on friendly terms. My daughter enjoys the setting and the care they provide isn’t in question.

can they kick her out as their manager has an issue with me contacting the council about them? Thanks

I’m on your side op, impacted the staffs mental health with the stress of the investigation- oh pull the other one! The council simply asked about top up fees I highly doubt each member was interrogated under oath! I think the ‘consumables’ tag is misleading cuz yes how on earth is a a 3 year old eating 30 quid a day. As others have said they need to top up the funding but trying to fob you off as consumables isn’t really fair

@Girlmum1984

I’m with you somewhat!

If there are no regulations, why not charge £100 a day for consumables.

I think things should always be clear and transparent. If the ‘real’ reason is the nursery need more money to operate, then why not just say that - rather than what seems like an excessive charge for consumables.

Was this made clear to you when you signed up for a place?

I think cancelling daughter’s place is very OTT. People should be allowed to question things.

They aren't allowed to charge Top Up fees, though, just "Consumables". Its the only way to make up the shortfall.

We had similar. It started off when I queried the ‘snack fees’ for my son. He had intolerances so I had been told to supply all his snacks and milk and any ingredients for baking etc which I did. They then introduced snack fees which I didn’t pay. The manager asked me for my late payment ?? I said ‘but I supply ALL his snacks’ she said i still
had to pay and I refused unless they then started getting his milk and snacks to which she refused saying ‘it’s too expensive’ . She then involved the chairperson of the committee and they told me again that I had to pay. I refused again and the manager then said ‘but when your daughter was here 2 years ago there were occasions she actually had an extra biscuit if she asked so you need to pay for those ‘ !!!!!

I refused again and she said they would be seeking advice. I was then reported to social services by her and she had made up allegations that I was unkind to my son when dropping off and picking up and they they were concerned I was making up food allergies for attention and to emotionally harm him !!! The SW helped us find a new nursery !!! The one he was at closed a few years later and I can’t say I’m surprised!

@TwentySecondsLeft because they aren’t allowed to charge extra for the hours - they are only allowed to charge a fee for ‘extras’.

Hence this.

Not uncommon for them to split into two sessions and charge ‘breakfast club’, ‘lunch club’ etc to get around this.

I think things should always be clear and transparent. If the ‘real’ reason is the nursery need more money to operate, then why not just say that - rather than what seems like an excessive charge for consumables

Simple answer - because the same Government telling everyone the hours are free won't let them charge top up fees.

I work in a nursery albeit as a cleaner,12 of the 20 girls/women who work there also have evening jobs,a hell of a lot of money is spent on equipment/food .

If the council had found the nursery was fraudulently overcharging parents then they could've had their childcare registration revoked, so, yes, I imagine the investigation prompted by OP's query* to the council was really stressful and could've impacted the manager's mental health.

*Let's be honest, it was a complaint dressed up as a query.

Unfortunately they are able to terminate your contract.

However, people on this thread saying that nurseries are allowed to charge are only partially correct - any charge for consumables has to be voluntary and paying the additional charge cannot be contingent on accessing the place.

So the OP could have arranged with the nursery to bring in her child's meals, snacks and drinks etc and not paid the fee - but I suspect they would have then found another reason to terminate the contract 😶

It would be interesting to know if the nursery was VAT registered given the jump in consumables charge from paid for to funded place - especially at a point where you would expect consumables to be getting cheaper (no nappies or expensive formula!) and before people jump on me and say childcare fees are VAT free - they are for the care element but nurseries can charge VAT for consumables.

https://www.eyalliance.org.uk/news/2024/02/dfe-clarifies-guidance-around-additional-early-years-charges-parents

"However, we removed the line regarding charges being voluntary in order to provide clarity to readers. This was partially based on feedback we received during our testing period with a small number of local authorities, providers and relevant bodies. If a parent is unable to pay for consumables or if a parent wishes to provide their own, then the parent and provider can discuss alternative options. This could include allowing parents to supply their own meals or nappies, or waiving or reducing the cost of meals and snacks. As set out in clause A1.33 of the guidance, such charges should not be made a condition of accessing a free place."

Also:

Nursery top-up fees in England
The government has said nurseries in England are within their rights to charge for things like nappies, wipes, food and other ‘consumables’.
However these extra consumable charges are not allowed to be ‘a condition of accessing a funded place’.
The Early Education and Childcare Statutory Guidance for Local Authorities April 2023 states providers can ‘charge for meals and snacks as part of a free entitlement place and that they can also charge for consumables such as nappies or sun cream, and for services such as trips and specialist tuition. Parents can therefore be expected to pay for these, although these charges must be voluntary for the parent’.
Nurseries must be completely transparent about any additional charges.

That is the highest consumables fee I've ever heard of, I probably would have been questioning it to the nursery too. They have parents over a barrel though, we need the spaces so we have to pay.
I feel for you OP, however due to the investigation there is now bad feeling there. They're making it clear to other parents not to question them by banishing you. They aren't putting the needs of your child first in this scenario though. It's a horrid situation.

Check your contract T&C's, you'll probably find that yes they can terminate the contract with you with prior notice.
I think you've shot yourself in the foot a little, everyone knows why the nursery needs to top up the funding from the government. The extra funding is putting more pressure on nurseries to provide more childcare spaces so waitlists are increasingly long.
I think its fine to question the consumables charge, but unless you have a space available for your child at another nursery, what did you intend the outcome to be? They will have priced up the costs and I can't see them being willing to change it just due to your complaint.
I think reporting them to the council was harsh, they've obviously had to justify their charges which must have been stressful and knowing they can probably fill your daughters space easily, it must be tempting for them to eliminate you as a problem.
If I were you I'd probably try to smooth things over and explain you didn't intend for them to be investigated, just that you wanted clarity on the shortfall of the funding and apologise for any stress caused. Reiterate that you and your daughter are very happy with the care provided.

So you're getting childcare for £150 a week, including food costs and activity costs? Sounds like a bargain to me.

Were you really unaware that nurseries bump up incidental fees to cover the fact that the rate that they get from the government for “funded” places is too low? If so where have you been for the last 3 years?

And could you not see what the nursery might think of it?

As my granny used to say, you need to learn which side your bread is buttered. You’re either astonishingly naive or like drama.

And yes a private nursery can give notice to you for any reason as long as they are not discriminating (I.e. your DC has a “protected characteristic” and they are kicking her out because of it). FYI having a mother who is a bit of a space cadet is not a protected characteristic.

It is indeed OP's right to take up the Nursery costs with the Council as it is equally the right of the Nursery to decide they no longer wish to do business with OP.

I think the government wanted the credit for providing 'free' childcare, without actually providing the correct level of funding to enable nurseries to action that.
Everyone seems to want to blame the nurseries for that rather than the government who are knowingly providing insufficient funding.

I don't think you were wrong to ask the council for more information on regulations. Your post doesn't say you "reported" the nursery so presumably you were asking if they are within their rights to charge more for those things than they might cost. The council gave you a response.

I think if you're happy with the nursery in general and want to keep the place, the best way forward is perhaps to explain your intention was from a place of concern about the cost and you needed some clarity which wasn't clear from their response. You didn't intend to upset / cause stress to anybody and anticipated further clarity, not an investigation (presuming this is the case?). However, I'd apologise profusely and make it clear you're happy to pay moving forward, that you have done more research and are now aware of the financial strain on providing the free hours which you weren't before, and maybe offer something as a gesture of good will such as offer to purchase some extra supplies or buy something they need for the nursery or staff. Even some biscuits, teabags and milk to help morale?!

Honestly I wouldn't expect a nursery to threaten withdrawing a place because of a query, and I think you're getting a hard time on here. If your child doesn't do those specific activities I can see why logically it seems expensive and so I don't think it was unreasonable to question it if you didn't really understand it's not actually about consumables. Yes nurseries should be more honest and upfront about the gov funding needing subsidising. But you'll have to suck it up and pay if you want the place.

Well it does seem a bit much, especially if you’ve been professional and polite. But you did report them to be investigated, makes it a bit awkward. I think they are annoyed and punishing you. If you didn’t have the £30 yanbu if you did and your child was happy there you should have paid it. My children attend such a lovely nursery, I trust them and if they ask for something I don’t question it. The fact my kids are happy and I trust them means a lot. So 50/50 response here.

It’s not right, but you were naive to think that reporting them to the council wouldn’t have any repercussions

Oh I don’t disagree! You’re right that that’s OP’s query so I should have rounded off my post with that.

To all the people quick to post “it’s not meant to be free!” Please see @BloominNora s post because she has the correct information.

Charging artificially high “consumables fees” and making them compulsory is in violation of the guidance. This is why I’m actually surprised that the local council found in favour of the nursery in this case.

OP certainly did nothing wrong questioning, and actually, punishing her child for it (which let’s be clear, is what the nursery is doing by suggesting she finds another setting, disrupting the child’s education/progress) is really
unethical and poor show from these nursery workers. They’re putting their own hurt feelings above the child’s welfare.

I think you were right to question fees OP , seems expensive to me

Well if I had complained/queried and that was the outcome I certainly wouldn’t feel bad about the nursery managers mental health to be honest…

But overall, as many have said, the nursery can terminate. Hopefully OP is able to find a spot elsewhere!

Yes, they can choose who comes to their nursery

The fees are high- my 3 year old in school attached nursery is charged £15 a day for consumables. But they were very clear when telling us about them they have to charge consumables because the funding is not enough to cover costs on its own. Maybe your nursery failed to really talk frankly about their costs- its possible if you are in an expensive rent area that their costs really are that much higher.

I understand the maths from the Nursery's point of view, but if your three year old is out of nappies how do you get to £29 of consumables?

I'd be happy to pay for food and music lessons and send in wipes and nappies if needed.