Nursery are threatening to remove my child as I questioned fees

[Girlmum1984]

My daughter turns 3 in a few weeks and we will be able to claim 30 free hours. When this happens, my consumables fee will increase from £12 a day to £29. have questioned this with management and asked for a breakdown of what this fee includes. They have listed food, nappies etc as well as a few activities (baking, PE classes, music classes). The activities listed take place twice month and so far haven’t been on the day that my child attends. All of this would never add up to £29 daily.

Unsatisfied with the response, I emailed the local council to understand how consumables fees can be issued to parents and it there were any regulations. As a result, they contacted the nursery manager and investigated. They were satisfied with the findings and basically said there are no regulations they need to follow when it comes to consumables fees and they can charge what they like. Annoying, but fine.
I have now had an official looking email from my nursery to say I have impacted the staffs mental health by making this enquiry and they are going to discuss whether our contact will be terminated as a result!
I’ve never had any issues with staff in the past and we’ve always been on friendly terms. My daughter enjoys the setting and the care they provide isn’t in question.

can they kick her out as their manager has an issue with me contacting the council about them? Thanks

Do you not claim a deduction in these?
Photos attached from HMRC website.

Yes that's an expense that goes through our books, that's what we're saying.

@FrannyScraps
So you pay less income tax.

@BurntBroccoli the PP still has to pay those expenses, it is just that the tax treatment is better than if she had to cover them out of post tax income

I'm beginning to think you're on the wind up so I'll step back. Have a good evening.

but that is just running a business. If I set up a school photos business and employ a photographer and buy her a camera and some memory cards and pay a printing firm to produce the photos, all of those costs come off of my revenues before we get to the profit from which I can pay myself a salary as manager of the business

That's expenses 🤣

Yes, they’re expenses. We take the expenses off of our total as the money has literally been spent on these expenses. We can’t use the money for anything else as it has gone on the cost of running the business. It’s not profit as the money is used to keep everything running.

A Childminding business is much like any other business. You total the money coming into the business, deduct the money going out and then you are taxed on the remaining as that is your profit.

I don't think some people understand expenses. I work for myself (lawyer). My profit on which I pay tax is what is left after expenses, thousands for compulsory insurance, wage bills for any staff when I have them, for many very expensive lease costs and business rates etc etc. It is not a con or evading tax to be taxed on the profit you actually make. I pay loads of tax but of course only on the profit. On y receipts - turnover I have to add 20% (VAT) which the state takes.

I'm a childminder and wouldn't mind being state funded. It just means the state pays my invoice instead of parents. Won't make much difference to me, it might actually improve things as some parents pay late/don't pay the final invoice etc.

I already charge in line with the funded hours rates. I already deliver the government's EYFS curriculum. Qualifications in childcare. Have all my first aid and safeguarding etc that you would expect from state providers it's not like being private means you don't follow the same standards as LA provisions.

I would welcome such a thing. I think owners of private nurseries are focused on making a profit and that isn't the best thing for the children AT ALL. I e worked in a couple, admittedly a long time ago now, and the parents were shown around by a very knowledgeable manager and the staff in room with the qualifications and knowledge of EYFS were focused more on paperwork than the staff without the qualifications/experience- which meant the bulk of the actual interactions with the kids was by the young inexperienced unqualified staff.

State owned care homes pay their staff similar to what you get in childcare. What is a HCA paid? These jobs are just as skilled. We should all be paid more than we get. Arguing nursery is a business and has to make a profit just means the owners making money not the staff soo no the work.

Surely you must make a profit though otherwise you wouldn’t be a childminder. Without a profit you’re essentially working for free are you not? The profit I earn pays my mortgage, feeds and clothes my children and pays my bills. My profit is essentially my wage. For all I love my job, there is no way on earth I would carry on without making a profit.

My local authority pay a lot less than my hourly rate for 3/4 year olds, I’m one of the cheaper childminders in my area too. Some areas are lucky and their funding rates match or are even over the usual hourly rate.

@Loopydaloppy I make equivalent of minimum wage or slightly less if you count the time I spend planning. This is the case for the majority of childcare workers. To earn more I'd have to take on assistants, pay them minimum wage and make money off their work the way nursery owners do but on a smaller scale. If the state funded all childcare I wouldn't make less I might even make more as would the majority of workers in childcare.

I do thé job because i love it. It's so rewarding and I wouldn't be happy if I wasn't nurturing the next generation. You don't go into childcare if you want lots of money. The nursery owners rarely actually work with the kids and it's managing staff and all that stuff I would hate

I have to disagree with making more if the state funded all childcare. As I said, my local authority pay a lot less than my usual hourly rate. I can’t see government paying more than they already do which, for 3/4 year olds, just isn’t enough. I never went into childcare to become rich but I shouldn’t be struggling to pay the bills and feed my children either, I shouldn’t be struggling to earn minimum wage. The government knowingly underfunded and carries on underfunding settings. They’re not going to get any better if they take it all ‘in house’.

I think mums & dads would view it differently if the nurseries gave them an honest answer/explanation to the question of why it costs £29 when getting free hours, compared to £12 when they're paying for childcare.

The mental health aspect they've used in their reasoning is pathetic.

And if you read the thread, you will find out why an honest explanation isn’t possible.

£30 in consumables a day is sodding ridiculous, and the excuse given because they have to accept the funded hours even more so, I don't blame you for questioning it. It doesn't cost more for a 3 yr old, and I don't spend £30 a day on 'consumables'. The problem is you called them on the rort they are all on, and now they want to get rid of you.

The funding is lower for a 3 year old so it does cost the nursery more.

The government have said we can't charge anything other than for consumables. Even a Sustainability fee was rejected.

Have you signed the partitions and joined any of the campaigns, followed the champagne nurseries for Lemonade funding pages? Nurseries and professional bodies have been pushing for proper funding and the change from fee to funded for as long as funding was first suggested but few parents care until they get a bill.

How much does childcare cost these days per hour at nursery? At what age do the free hours kick in?

So it's okay for a childminder to lose £380 of income every month while doing the same work and paying out the same for costs? Sure you would love a payout of around £4k a year.

The age/number of funded hours information is readily available to you through Google.

The cost charged by a private nursery per hour is set by that nursery. The funding paid by the LA per hour varies by age and area. A couple of examples have been pasted on this thread but again, Google will give you the full spreadsheet.

@girlmum84
New guidance out now on this

www.gov.uk/government/publications/early-education-and-childcare--2

Terrible guidance that is going to cause a real problem to the early years sector and will see many providers have to close. Good luck to all those working parents banking on getting 30hrs for their 9 month + children. There will be a sufficiency problem accros England once Local Authoritirs are forced to police this and ensure nurseries are compliant. I had high hopes for this Labour government but this crazy change in guidance shows how out of touch they are

100% agree @YourWiseSheep. This is devastating for the majority of providers. The government/local authorities should deal with those individual nurseries charging excessive fees rather than penalising every single nursery and childminder.

Many providers will now be considering not accepting funded children anymore so the government's plan could backfire spectacularly come September when there will be no childcare spaces available anymore.