Nursery are threatening to remove my child as I questioned fees

[Girlmum1984]

My daughter turns 3 in a few weeks and we will be able to claim 30 free hours. When this happens, my consumables fee will increase from £12 a day to £29. have questioned this with management and asked for a breakdown of what this fee includes. They have listed food, nappies etc as well as a few activities (baking, PE classes, music classes). The activities listed take place twice month and so far haven’t been on the day that my child attends. All of this would never add up to £29 daily.

Unsatisfied with the response, I emailed the local council to understand how consumables fees can be issued to parents and it there were any regulations. As a result, they contacted the nursery manager and investigated. They were satisfied with the findings and basically said there are no regulations they need to follow when it comes to consumables fees and they can charge what they like. Annoying, but fine.
I have now had an official looking email from my nursery to say I have impacted the staffs mental health by making this enquiry and they are going to discuss whether our contact will be terminated as a result!
I’ve never had any issues with staff in the past and we’ve always been on friendly terms. My daughter enjoys the setting and the care they provide isn’t in question.

can they kick her out as their manager has an issue with me contacting the council about them? Thanks

@Loopydaloppy "Expenses generally take anywhere between a 1/3 and 1/2 of takings overall. There is also the question of space as childminders work from there own home.

the big question is would you be happy working extra with more stress for no financial gain? If you were a childminder, would you prefer to look after 3 children and be paid your usual hourly rate, and very much what your worth, or would you prefer to have the extra work of a 4th child in the hopes you would at least make minimum hourly rate? Would you expect to be paid for the work you do in the correct way or would you be willing to take a huge cut but have extra work piled on top?"

What expenses are there in the home? Shouldn't be nappies at that age and parents could be asked to provide. Yes food - but you could cook wholesome batch food for one meal and get snacks from parents.
£22 an hour is more than I earn (I have expenses like a car and clothes for work).

Private nurseries have parents over a barrel right now and need better regulation.

And the government have private providers over a barrel right now, and something is about to snap because it's not sustainable.

@Worriedmotheroftwo
Yes agree - many private nurseries seem to be exploiting parents with these extra fees.
The only way is to get back to state nursery provision (not private or charities) where there is absolutely no profit involved. They manage this in several European countries as they are investing in the next generation.

My goodness, this shows such a lack of knowledge of childminders and what we do.

My turnover last tax year was £36k... sounds a lot on paper and this is what you're all adding up and assuming we earn. It isnt! 39% was expenses meaning my profit, my wage, was just under £22k. Barely scraping minimum wage. Less than minimum wage if you count all the work I do for my business outside of looking after the children.

Because they have to have profit. They're businesses. If the heating breaks, roof/carpets needs replacing etc they need to have the money to fix things as it's theirs. If it was state funded the state would have to pay to fix things.

@girlmum84
Not sure you are still around but if you are please contact your MP. The only way this can change is if they have evidence of real life cases.
I would also ask the council (under the FOI act) to show their findings then you will have a clear idea of their costs.

@FrannyScraps
Can you say what expenses you have please? Just interested.

I had a lovely childminder btw and really appreciated her. Much better than nursery provision in my case.

@FlyingHighFlyingLow
So we have to invest in infrastructure for childcare provision. Other European countries manage it.
No profit should ever come into it. That's where this model of childcare has gone wrong. Along with house prices of course.

As I said above I would rather then 15 hours (for higher earner women and asylum seekers from 3 years of age child) and 30 hour schemes( from 9 months old for other women ) would be more honestly called a modest grant towards costs in my view. Anyway we are where we are.

We got one of the first in the scheme Blair brought out which started as just for 4 year olds not younger and they got about £600 off and that was off a private school set of fees but it was certainly not reflective in any way of the number of hours supposedly it covered in any way even all those years ago.

As for what childminders and nurseries have to pay for - heat and light will be a huge cost in winter in particular. Employer NI for nurseries with staff over about 4 members of staff. Employee pension obligations (same with anyone employing a nanny under PAYE on employer NI and pension although the state hates women employing nannies so much it does not even give them the employer NI exemption every other small employer gets) Insurance

Petrol, heating, lighting, food, ofsted registration, accounting expenses if she uses a package or an external person, toys, books, cleaning products. That’s off the top of my head.

eta: bedding, beds (if children are of napping age), car seats, buggies, any necessary courses

Food
Mileage
Nappies / wipes bags (I supply)
Entry fees for all our activities
Car parking
Craft items (weekly!)
Toys /equipment (needs replacing often and we need more of it) I've just had to buy a new raincover for a quad buggy costing £110)
Car seats / bedding / buggies (I have 8 car seats, I replace at least 1 usually 2 per year)
Ofsted fees
Insurance
Childcare.co.uk subscription
Tapestry subscription
First aid, safeguarding and other courses
I've just bought a new laptop and printer
Cleaning supplies/ tissues (so much!)
Tables and chairs for children
Changing bags (I just bought a new one £40)
Changing mats / safety gates / high chairs/ plates/ cutlery/ water bottles
Potties /seats /steps / towels / flannels

Yes lots of lasts, but things get a lot heavier wear in my house, things need replacing a lot more often than in your house.

Today I've bought a white noise machine which I didn't have. A little one I care for needs it to sleep and mum keeps forgetting it.

That's just what I can list off the top of my head.

I'm a childminder and my expenses are also usually around 1/3 of turnover. As well as the big expenses (car seats, cots, double buggies), gas & electric costs are huge, insurance, training and general wear and tear on my house.

What would an MP do?

Sorry, why shouldn't I make profit? My profit is my income, that's how I live and pay for my own bills. I have a family to raise and a home to pay for just like you...and oooh I even use that profit to go on holiday once in a while!

I think the PP meant that the entire system should be state provision, like there is school provision for all 4-18 year olds.

However, I doubt this would ever happen and until it does, of course nurseries/CMs have to make a profit or they would give up and not offer childcare!

Ah well yes I'd be out of a job then!

I should add at this point, I don't actually charge for 'consumables' even though I provide all food and nappies. I income them in the funded hours proce and parents pay for additional hours they use.

I do however disagree with it being banned if settings need to charge it then they should be able to.

Private nurseries shouldn't exist; they should be government-run and funded entirely or almost entirely by taxes. That's how many European countries do it.

I was talking to a Bulgarian friend about this, and theirs are state run, available from 2 years old, 8am to 6pm, from 4 it's more schoolish in the morning and after school club ish in the afternoon, all free bar food costs, which she says are about 30 quid per month.

And where are the taxes going to come from? Yes, everyone’s taxes will rise yet again but let’s consider the fact that schools are already failing because of lack of funding, the NHS is failing due to a lack of funding, emergency services are on their knees. If we all have to pay more tax where should the money go?

@ThisUsernameIsNowTaken
Yes I agree.
This is an interesting article on how Norway does it. Very much investing in society and a future for all.

hechingerreport.org/norway-law-decrees-let-childhood-be-childhood/

And this article states how investing in childcare boosts the economy:

www.weforum.org/stories/2023/07/highest-childcare-costs-by-country/

@Loopydaloppy

"And where are the taxes going to come from? Yes, everyone’s taxes will rise yet again but let’s consider the fact that schools are already failing because of lack of funding, the NHS is failing due to a lack of funding, emergency services are on their knees. If we all have to pay more tax where should the money go?"

That's because of 14 years of Tory underinvestment.

Might bring in more taxes. If I had free/more affordable nursery, I would have gone back to work far sooner and worked far more hours.

Yeah, I just bet you knew that already.🙄

A lot of small businesses don't and a lot of nurseries don't, judging by some of the terms and conditions they try to get away with. And most posters on Mumsnet don't know that you don't just have to roll over and accept them, judging by the type of comments I see regularly.

Raise the issue in the Commons or on a Committee, and they can also directly intervene in some situations for their constituents.

It may go nowhere but if the only feedback MPs get is the persistent lobbying from big business then it is only those interests that they address.