Nanny justifing shouting, snappy, moody stressed behaviour with children...!!

[knakered]

hi Have had a great nanny for the past year -- it has gone really well until the start of the new year. She screams and snaps at the children and when tackled justfies it as OK as she is trying to disciplne them at a difficult time of the day and that she has seen me shout...

my response has been that 2 wrongs dont make a right, that she is paid to be professonal and employ appropriate techniques that are non aggressive.

I feel a bit compromised here as I do shout which I try hard not to do and that it is different for parents (??IS IT??) - that I would never shout at someone elses child or at a work colleague in my professional capacity -- but am I skating on thin ice here??

at then end of our discussions which have gone on for weeks now I have had to enforce a request that she does not shout at my children...that the job discription requires that she does nt scream she has agreed to that on Friday
but I am still left with doubts as I feel concerned that she persisted to defend her moody shouty snappy behaviour and although she has finally agreed to stop shouting wrt her job description - I dont think that she agrees with it and wonder if she has control.

Well shouting at the children is in the contract with my nanny as a disciplinary offense!

So no - i definitely don't think it is okay!

It's not OK. I wouldn't tolerate it.

Rather than that she is shouting at the children my concern would be what does she think your children are doing that is so wrong that she feels she needs to keep shouting/ snapping at them...and if she shouts at them when you are within earshot (and nannies from personal experience are generally on best behaviour when in earshot of parents) what is she doing when you are not around!!

As a nanny I don't need to shout at my charges and never have done. They are not doing anything that warrants being shouted at and if they were there are with just a few exceptions far better ways of disciplining children than screaming at them!! I don't really shout at my own children either...very ocassionally in exasperation at bedtime etc but I don't find it achieves much in general!!

Sounds like she may be unhappy in her job and taking it out on the children OR not particularly well trained and out of her league!

Using the fact that you shout at your children as making it acceptable really isn't excuasable. BUT if she is a bit out of her depth maybe she is using your parenting skills as an example to follow..

I think you need to make sure you have regular chats with her and make it clear that while she may not agree with you that they are your children and you are employing her to do the job your way!! Easier said than done Im sure!

Jenna

NO NO NO! You're not paying someone to do something you can do yourself for free! Her job is to be calm, consistent and professional and it is a complete red herring to say that because you sometimes lose it it's OK for her to.

no, it isn't ok
I mean we are all human and I am sure I did some things as a nanny that weren't great
but I think trying to justify it in cold blood doesn't bode well

What's causing her change of behaviour do you think? Is she unhappy in her job or is there something going on in her personal life? Not that that makes it ok to shout of course, but I think you need to get to the bottom of it.

how old are your children btw? Can you ask them in a tactful way how things are when they are on their own with her?

What went on in her life at Christmas for her to think that shouting is ok?

Screaming and snapping at children from someone paid to look after them is not on. It's no way to discipline children. And what I find most bothersome is that she doesn't see that she's doing anything wrong.

I think there might be a control issue - maybe she's trying to assert some authority over you or the children, or maybe she felt too embarrassed to admit she was wrong and back down.

If the nanny is a professional and good at her job, she will know how to discipline children, as JennaJ says. It sounds like something is beyond her control and it might not actually be the children. Maybe she feels she is in the wrong job (either because she is not up to it or because she wishes she was doing something else). Sometimes too, the nanny, as we all do, might be taking frustrations out on the children that she is actually indirectly aiming at you? Have there been other disagreements?

It sounds to me like you need to have a chat with her, AWAY from the house and children, just like you might with staff at work. It must be off-site, and not emotional or confrontational. She may need a "are you happy in your job?" type discussion. Remember you have employed her, but she is part of your family...

Thanks for the advice...there are a few clues - she only "came back" to nannying, to this job, after leaving nannying 4 years ago and needing a job quickly after being made redundant from an office job last year - maybe she is frustrated that she is back in nannying.

jennaj - I have 3 at school who we sort in the mornings - so she only has to the 18month old to look after in the day (toddler is an angel who sleeps for 3 hours 12-3) the others (6,7,9) are back by 4.30 - so she has in total just over 1hr with all 4 on her own in the day. This seems to be the flash point - she snaps at supper about their table manners etc...I often walk in on this and she claims that me coming home causes the chaos and the children push boundaries when we are both together.

When she arrives she looks wrecked/exhausted and in a bad mood and when I arrive back in the evenings she is moody, snappy shouty etc. Sometimes I wonder if she is behaving like this for my benefit? Its not just me 2 of my relatives popped in recently and mentioned that they thought she was unnecessarily harsh with the children. I wonder if she is depressed. I am trying to get through PND and recognise some of these behaviours. She says that she wishes I could be a fly on the wall as it isnt always like this ...but its always what I see. My advice to her is to slap on a smile and take deep breaths for this hour in the evening.

If table manners are a flashpoint... are you that concerned about your children's table manners, that you want your nanny to be insisting that the children meet whatever her expectation is. Perhaps the 'rules' could be relaxed a bit.
If sticking to certain rules at the dinner table is a must, then the older children may find that making a list of the rules on a large sheet of paper will help them to remember the rules, and discuss what disciplinary method will be used for when they don't remember, or point blankly refuse to comply with those rules.
4 children is hard, but your nanny isn't having all 4 for long. Is there something specific the older children are doing, which winds your nanny up? Is it their tablemanners, or is there something else, like bickering, fighting.

If she wishes you were a fly on the wall - do you have a video camera? Could the nanny set up the video camera so that it say recorded Tea Time at the dinner table... so then you could all (older 3 children, nanny and yourself) playback the recording and discuss what behaviour is undesirable, what could be made better (children able to help themselves to food for example, or if that happens at the moment, then plating up the food in the kitchen), interaction between everyone, position people sit, length of time meal takes, all sorts of things.

Is tea on the table when the older children arrive home? 4.30pm at my work is typical time for tea.
Does your nanny have all 4 of them at any other time... for example during school holidays? Are there issues then, or is it only at evening mealtime?

I was a nanny and am now a mum and would never never never have shouted or screamed at the kids in front of the parents or when they weren't there.

She has seen you shout? Cheeky mare.

No no no this is all wrong.

She should not be shouting at the kids and though she has a snmall point about kids playing off mum and nanny this is far bigger than that.

You need to sort this quickly as she is meant to be doing a job of looking after precious children and she isn't managing herself very well.

Poor kids.

she doesn't sound very professional. whatever is happening in her personal life shouldn't affect her work. you're paying her to do a job.

Is this the nanny who is the qualified teacher (but not ever working as a teacher), who you had safety concerns over back in April last year?
I think that nanny left (was dismissed).
Assuming you are now talking about a new nanny (you have mentioned in the past that your new nanny is excellent - "The children love her and she is very caring, organised, efficient etc." source) then it does sound like something has changed recently which is affecting your nannies work abilities.

"When she arrives she looks wrecked/exhausted and in a bad mood" - that does not sound good. Is she having trouble sleeping, could she be taking drugs (be it legal ones of illegal). Have you talked with her regarding why she is coming to work looking tired?

Nanny nick technically she has the children for school holidays - but in reality this doesnt happen - as I take a lot of holiday - also 3 of my sisters are teachers and ours go the theirs and do a lot with them she says she enjoys the holidays with them as there is a lot to do locally and it is all relaxed....I think it is specifically the after school bit is the flash point. My advice has been to get the table laid, meal prepared as much clearing up as possible done in the 3 hrs that the baby sleeps so that she is not stressed by trying to cook prepare etc with 4 under her feet...she agrees that they ar enot badly behaved children - just a bit hyper, hectic on retrurning from school..

as are all school children I find. My day tends to go perfectly well until school collection time. It's the last few hours of the job which are the toughest... children coming home from school are often tired, irritable and easily wind each other up.

Agree with you that getting as much ready before they get home will help things. Summer is luckly approaching, so early evening picnics in the garden become a possibility.

Poor you. I had PND and nanny problems and it's 10x more difficult when you are struggling yourself.

Don't know what to say, as i think some of my problems with my nanny were compounded by not feeling outgoing or sociable to people, and so not building a great relationship with her. However, I also felt that she took advantage of my being a bit defenceless to take the piss in various ways.

I don't think your nanny should shout, and I don't think you should have as many problems ('weeks of discussions') persuading her not to.

I also know some nannies who are pretty negative about certain of their charges, and I hope yours is not one of them, as it might be difficult to turn the situation around if she's made up her mind.

sometimes nannies don't gel with their charges - could this be the case?

Whatever the case you need to make it clear you will not accept her shouting and screaming at your children.

.Nannynick yes my nanny last year I dismissed on safety grounds this lady we have had since then and all has been fine and great until maybe after Christmas...she does get on really well with each of the children and respects their individual personalities - she also has been happy and open with us - describes us as laid back employers.

One evening I got back with the oldest 9 year old at 545 and he was only in the door and she barked at him, the same evening the 18month old who is the most sweet natured delightful child threw her bib on the floor the nanny demanded she pick it up , screamed at her til she cried then hauled her up by her arm and and dragged her to a naughty mat. I am ashamed to say that I stood by and watched and didnt comment.

I sent her a text in the evening to ask if she was OK and that she appeared stressed, suggested that we have a chat. She turned up with repressed anger on 2 issues one that she hates reminding me about her wages each month - I apologised and agreed to write out the cheques there and then and she could stick them under my nose for signing on the 20th of each month. Second issue from her was that I was disrespectful to her as she had my bathroom and I left my make-up out and did not put it away. My response was that tidying my bathroom was not in her duties, I have a cleaner x2 a week, I am busy full time working mum of 4 children - and getting all of us up dressed and out the door in the morning before 7.30 means that I do not have time to prioritise putting my mascara back in the bathroom cupboard.

I thought that she was going to tell me she had some challenging personal problem and this is why she was behaving like this and I would have worked hard to support her through it.

I think what is eating me now is that although she apologised for the incident with the baby - I struggle inside myself as a mother to forgive this. Also I am disappointed that thru our discussions on shouting/snapping etc she stood her ground that this was appropriate behaviour and my last resort was I had to demand that she doesnt shout at my children.

Agree that summer is coming and thr possibility of picnics etc will lighten the air - I continue to suggest ways of making the evening hour better -- but think that I am getting a bit resentful having to come up with solutions to her job -

It does not sound good. Getting stressed with an 18-month old over a minor thing like throwing a bib is bit much!
Why are you paying by cheque... most people pay wages via direct bank transfer these days, don't they? Could you set up a standing order for the bulk of the pay, then add the few extra pounds and pennies via BACs or cheque (if she really insists). - I am assuming your nanny works mostly fixed hours, so from the monthly payslips you should be able to work out an amount which is the bulk of the salary after tax/ni. Late payments can be an issue - having that problem myself, though more to do with childcare vouchers. For some people I know being paid on time, everytime is very important, as they don't have any savings to fall back on should their pay be late, but you are trying you best to sort pay out... even by saying you will write the cheques in advance. Payment on the 20th? I'm lucky if mine gets to my account by the 5th of the next month!

She had your bathroom? It's YOUR bathroom, you can leave it as you like! Putting your makeup away is not a serious crime. Is she live-in? Could she share the children's bathroom?

Hate to say it... but if things do not improve, I think you may need to start going down the line you did with the last nanny. You've discussed the shouting issue, don't seem to be getting far. So next stage is written warning. If she want's the job, then she needs to learn to relax a bit.

You must get a different nanny. What if she's being horrible to your lovely dd all day? Or maybe nursery plus after school club would save you having to deal with another nanny trauma?

Good grief! Why is this person still your nanny!

She would have been out the door the very instant I saw her mistreat the baby!

I'm very very shocked at this tbh! These are your children you are allowing her to mistreat