Nanny justifing shouting, snappy, moody stressed behaviour with children...!!

[knakered]

hi Have had a great nanny for the past year -- it has gone really well until the start of the new year. She screams and snaps at the children and when tackled justfies it as OK as she is trying to disciplne them at a difficult time of the day and that she has seen me shout...

my response has been that 2 wrongs dont make a right, that she is paid to be professonal and employ appropriate techniques that are non aggressive.

I feel a bit compromised here as I do shout which I try hard not to do and that it is different for parents (??IS IT??) - that I would never shout at someone elses child or at a work colleague in my professional capacity -- but am I skating on thin ice here??

at then end of our discussions which have gone on for weeks now I have had to enforce a request that she does not shout at my children...that the job discription requires that she does nt scream she has agreed to that on Friday
but I am still left with doubts as I feel concerned that she persisted to defend her moody shouty snappy behaviour and although she has finally agreed to stop shouting wrt her job description - I dont think that she agrees with it and wonder if she has control.

Oh my, knakered, I would sack her on grounds of insubordination alone.

Legally agree with others that best to pay off her notice period and tell her not to turn up for work forthwith, surrender any house keys etc.

On seeing you shout, nannies are not paid to shout. It might sound like a double standard but my experience is that children tend to be much better behaved with a nanny than with their own parents. If my dd acts up with the nanny, it is because I also happen to be around. In which case, only I have the right to shout , not nanny. Them's the rules.

What does "insubordination" mean...I really would like to have the opportunity to talk this thru with her...but the situation is tense and I am not sure that I would achieve much...I she thinks I am being unreasonable..re "harrasment of the contact out of ours"...that I shout so she should...she dais that she feels I look at her with "hate in my eyes"...I have been cool since the baby incident as I am struggling with my own inassertiveness that I didnt act at this point...she has apologised for the baby incident...but that sticks in my throat ...I am unable to forgive or respect her anymore....do you think that I should show her this thread to get perspective??...or will that just add fuel to the fire...I would like her to understand what in "unreasonable"...and its not just me saying it

if i were you i would end the relationship as soon as practical - this weekend seems like an obvious break point. there's no point trying to patch things up with her for the sake of ending on a nice note - it won't work and you'll only end up putting more emotional energy into trying to resolve an impossible position.

i would pay her notice - you probably don't have to given the circumstances but i'd regard that as a sop to my conscience and then tell her not to come in any more.

if you're freelance and can manage without a nanny for a while then i would do that so you can put this all behind you and decide what to do next.

don't worry about the technicalities of redundancy etc - if you're paying notice then you are being more generous than you need to be so she won't be able to do anything to make trouble.

and re the contract - i think if you've provided one then you've actually met your obligations to provide a statement of work so there's nothing you can get into trouble for there.

this sort of thing is horrible while it lasts but fortunately it needn't last long if you deal with it. good luck.

knakered, a bit shocked at your description of what your nanny is saying to you. I would Never say to my boss she looks at me with hate in her eyes (!!) unless I did not intend to spend more time going to work.

It sounds Machiavellian but could it be possible that since the start of the year, she manufactured a plot to get you to pay her off by being as unreasonable as she can? In which case, I think it inadvertently backfired because you seem to have hung on for so long trying to resolve things - as she lashes out more and more! I hope she is not expecting a good reference ...

"Insurbordination" = disobedient, defiant, not listening to authority. Not sure if it is strictly a legal grounds for dismissal though . Mrs Wobble is legal.

OMG is she a psychotic? "hate in your eyes???"

What if someone junior to you at work said these things?

And regarding the shouting, do you get to do everything your boss does? And you sleep with your dh, can she do that because you do? She is using the logic of an addled mind. Bin her asap.

This will turn out to be that you didn't get her a good enough Christmas present, because she sounds barking.

I know it's easier said than done, it can be disasterous if you ditch work to look after the children, but she really does sound loopy.

And don't show her this thread unless you want shouting at too. You need uwila on this one (whose current name I've forgotten but there might be a 'mac' in there)

This is my current name.

I would most certainly NOT show her this thread. She might accuse you of defamation of character or slander or God knows what.

When is she due at work again?

She is bonkers. (and most certainly not fit to look after small children)

this girl doesn't want to be a nanny and she's taking it out on your kids

don't let her work her notice, get rid ASAP

Kanckered, please let us know how you get on before you go skiing. Suggest you fire her today if you are going on hols tomorrow. You will have a much better break without this hanging over you.

Ah, AN, there you are. I seem to have made you Scottish!

Good point about the slander and libel.

why on earth could you possibly think it a good idea to show her this thread??
i really think that both of you have boundary ishoooos..... she with her rudeness and misunderstanding of normal employer / employee etiquette and you with not challenging her dreadful behaviour towards your toddler / wanting to be her friend.....
if you have another nanny in the future you might want to think about the framework for the relationship / decide what the "rules" are and how you are going to have a good working relationship.

god don't show her the thread - why would you?

any news, or is OP on hol now?

I thinkthe OP went on hols last Thursday.

Just thought I would give you an update on where we are.

I had thought about showing her this thread just to demonstrate that her behaviour is unacceptable and that I am not being unreasonable...but I recognise that this is a stupid idea and I should be more confident in my own judgement.

I recognise my own failings through this process. I did not act immediately when she was "inappropriate" with my baby....I was not confident in my own judgement etc. I can empathise with PossiblyParanoids recent thread and I think to be challenged by other MNs is appropriate ie get some perspective ..put the needs of the child above your innate discomfort, legal concerns, money etc.

On another note this has nearly pulled our marriage apart. And again I emphasise with PP where the support from partner is not there.
My husband is cripplingly conflict averse. He will do anything to keep life smooth and in doing so often looses perspective of
the truth and does not "do the right thing".
In this case he just listened to me "moan on" about the issues with no input/advice/ etc. When it finally came to a head and the nanny and I had a final "tense" debate around the issues he was present. I said that I could not see a way through this and did not want her to work for us anymore. The intention was to pay her notice. He then got involved and "persuaded" me that we needed her for the next month and that we should make her redundant. I disagreed as I have 3 sisters who work in education who would have the following few weeks off as well as my mother locally to help out so didnt "need" her.
However he persisted and I relented.
We then ended up with a situation where I was not communicating with the nanny but my husband was the broker accomodating her needs. They agreed that she would finish end April - he told her that I was not working from then on so she would be made redundant. She then requested that she only work the 3 days a week that I work (ie out of the house different each week and unpredictable) so she can look for work - we agreed - saves us money. So we are now in a "polite" distant kind of relationship for these painful weeks. I have no regrets that she is going - although she has stopped shouting (when I am around at least)so things are marginally better, although there continues to be lots of examples of her stroppiness and inflexibility.

On the husband front things continue to limp along with this issue. At one point a few weeks ago just after the tumultuous few days I said to him "how did we get here?"...and his response was "because I had lost my temper with her"....which is what he perceived when after listening to a range of even more ridiculous accusations and justifications to me I said "enough please finish Thursday". It was not my finest hour as a professional employer but after weeks of discussion with someone so challenging/irrational and the emotional drain of trying to do the best for my children - I snapped, was curtin my comments and walked out. I think that my guilt at handling this in this emotional way left me vunerable to my husbands presuasion to keep her on for the following 6 weeks. I am still furious with him.

On another note I had to undergo a reference interview with her agency. I decided that I wouldnt go into the details but the questions were particularly probing. I remained factual and measured and was told by the agency who had placed her on previous occassions that this was consistent behaviour as evidenced by her previous employers (ie challenging, inflexible, harsh discipline. Anyway only another few weeks to endure - this afternoon I have to provide a written ref.

was told by the agency who had placed her on previous occassions that this was consistent behaviour as evidenced by her previous employers (ie challenging, inflexible, harsh discipline

Did they not tell you this when she started?! Or did you not get her through an agency?

If the agency didn't say something like that then I'd be livid.

Glad it's coming to an end now anyway.

knackered, I am glad that there is an end to this in sight.

I can understand your frustration about your dh - that he does not get involved except in the final showdown to take the nanny's side almost, in negotiating a staggered exit for her that you are less than happy with and which you will be the one to have to bear the brunt of. It must have been very difficult for you to not agree to his terms with her present. At the very least, you could both have discussed it and agreed the exit strategy before you had to confront her. I assume you did not discuss only because he refused to get engaged in nanny issues prior to this.

It is terribly hard on you to deal with a stroppy useless nanny and a dh who undermines you almost. Hope this incident allows you to develop a harder carapace in dealing with less-than-adequate nannies.

It sounds from the nanny agency that this nanny is a dud from the start. How did they justify placing her with you if their questions seemed to suggest this is the not the first compliant about her? Will they get you a replacement for free?

Did you speak to her previous employers before offering her the job?

What feedback did they give you on her performance?

I didnt get her thru an agency...she had left nannying for a few years to travel and do other stuff - and was working for a friend of mine in a travel agency - she was made redundant from there and decided to go back to nannying. I didnt check her refs on the phone - the written ones looked good. The agency said that if I had spoken with her refs I would have picked this up. Also a prospective employer called last week to ask Qs etc - again on direct questioning re disciple I said that she could be overly strict....but it depends where you stand on discipline yourself. She said that she had contacted the previuos employers and they had all brought up the disciplie issue and the inflexibility bit.....learnings speak to the previous employers...dont just rely on written refs

Oh I see

It's vitally important not to just accept a written reference on face value but to follow it up with a 'phone call and ask specific questions.

Had you done that you may well not be in the position you are now.

I believe you can literally write a reference that is one sentenc long. ie She was our nanny from x date to x date and in that time had x time off sick. End of it would speak volumes. If people ring you can presumably say that you have nothing to comment about this nanny.

I'm quite shocked that you didn't check her references For all you knew she could have been fired from previous jobs and wrote the references herself. It seems like such a gamble to take with your children involved.