A bit of an upsetting thread but please let me know your thoughts.

[TheDevilWearsPrimark]

I haven't been on mn for a while but I hope you can help me get to terms with this.

Our nanny has always been wonderful , really good with the children and we never had any concerns. She pretty much became part of the family over the last few months.

We had an incident last week and I have 'suspended' her since. I feel so awful about it and don't know what to do.
We are in a new house and have had lots of decorating done lately. This means loads of tools and paint etc around the house but I have been careful about where the children go, and to clean it up.

Last friday I got a call from our nanny, in tears, saying we should meet her at the hospital. One of the ambulance crew took over the call and told me DS had been in the bath with a bottle of white spirit.

Her story is she left him for a couple of minutes (oh my gosh!) and came back to find him with the empty bottle in the bath and the whole place reeking of turps. He was hysterical so she first showered him off (good) then dashed to call an ambulance whilst he sat under the shower.

He is fine, he had a really bad dry skin afterwards but we have been reassured he didn't ingest anything. I just hope there will be no long term effects.

I just can't stop going over this. It was first the decorators fault for leaving it in the bathroom when he knows we have small children, then mine for not checking. Then hers for leaving him in the bath alone!?

I couldn't stop crying and it has become the typical thing, I feel guilty for going to work now and leaving my children. I never thought I would be that woman, but this has really shaken me.

Can anyone advise, as a parent, or as a caregiver, what I should feel or do about this?

I have left mine in the bath at a similar age but only while upstairs putting clothes away etc....and as a cm I would never ever leave a child of that age alone, I am always so much more wary and cautious with the children I care for. However, these things do happen and it seems like lots of little errors caused the incident to occur. I would call her and chat, you have obviously adored her up until this point. I;m sure she must be incredibly shaken up and guilty about it.

Thanks again to everyone. It's remarkable how the experience and advice of others can help you work things out.
I showed DH this thread as he is still very angry about it and it seems to have helped. We are both getting over the anger and upset and just thinking about the next step.
To clarify, the bottle was left on the sash window in our bathroom which is within reach of, but not directly next to the bath. DS loves playing with empty shampoo bottles etc so I think he may have stepped out and grabbed it . We have no idea if the cap was screwed tight as it was just in the bath with him when our nanny found him.
At the moment I am counting my blessings he didn't drink it, or get it in his eyes or any other horrific eventuality.

I have no idea what to do about the situation, but am meeting with her tomorrow.
My sister called her and we are all meeting together to talk it over. She is coming with her mum.
Can anyone advise me on her rights? Should I take minutes?
It's all so awful we have had such a great relationship and never had to deal with anything like this, let alone the formalities. I suddenly feel like an 'employer' when it was never like that before.

I would give her a second chance. It WAS an accident. Talk with her about why he was left in the bathroom. Re-iterate that it should never happen again. It was unlucky that the white spirit was there (although a nanny should be able to spot danger in a room and deal with it tbh), but leaving a child in the bath is serious. Drowing does happen (quite frequently here in Australia). It only takes a few seconds.

She handled the incident properly, which is reassuring with a nanny - you know that if an accident happens she keeps calm and deals with it.

Re-assess the rules for the builders. Ask them to keep their stuff in a room under lock and key and to do a sweep of the house before they leave.

I'm in two minds about the coming with her mum bit.

I can see it means she is taking this very seriously; also I guess it balances the numbers (as you & your dh will both be there won't you?) But it sort of hints at not stepping up to the mark independently - having someone to fight your corner (& ? take cover behind). I do think it means you have to be yet more formal about the meeting: which means you & dh should perhaps work out a list of heads-of-issues that you have to address. So yes, have notes. And let her take notes too.

Just to repeat what I was saying before, I think it would not help anyone if the meeting focusses on going over the event in detail again - you'll just get people getting stuck correcting each other on tiny points of fact. Although it's human nature for her to want to put her own side again, I would I think consciously try not to go down that route, & instead steer for a discussion of "how (and what) can we learn from this?" (without any promises as to her keeping the job)

Bink - she is probably terrified and if it was me I would want someone ther to hold my hand even if I thought I had done no wrong at all

Bringing her mum is understandable

Oh - and I would say give her a second chance. A good relationship with a nanny is sometimes hard to find. And she wasn't the only one responsible for this.

Thanks. Bink, I think you are right, I should let her lead the conversation really and see what she has to say.
I understand what you say about the risks, personally I wouldn't leave them, our bathroom is quite far from the rest of the house and they are very young so this is something we really have to talk about.
It is just so awful we have to go over all the things I know she knows again, iyswim.
I guess there is no point speculating, I will see what the meeting brings.
Earlier I panicked that she may read this, as she uses our pc when here, but then even if she does, it may help!?

Oh and I am fine with her bringing her mum, in fact I encouraged it.

I just hope I conducted myself well in this whole situation. Whatever happens.
-In the hospital (though I was panicked and in shock) I comforted her, made sure she got home okay and kept her informed.

• We had a surprising interview with the hospitals duty social worker (Is this usual for accidents!?) during which I feel I supported her and couldn't explain enough what a good carer she was.

-The next day DH called her and asked her to stay off until we got back in touch, but reassured her she would still be paid.

It is just all so strange, as I said we haven't really had to deal with formalities and such, and thinking of those around such an emotional event is just even harder,
Can anyone who has worked in this position advise me how you would feel?

fletch - I know - and of course it's completely standard & appropriate that someone in a disciplinary situation has a moral supporter - I fully agree she's entitled to have someone (I meant to say that as answer to Primark's qu re what the nanny's rights might be).

Also, her mum may be the sort of down-to-earth person whose presence eases the whole process for everyone ... but she may not be ... hence the two minds, & thinking that (therefore) Primark needs to be carefully prepared & ready to steer the discussion.

The other outfit that might be helpful for Primark is ACAS (hope I have name right) - I am sure they have a helpline (or website even) that might offer some suggestions.

When DS2 was 2.5 he had a horrible accident in a pushchair. It was my fault as I hadn't put the brake on and he'd 'scooted' it forward until it fell down our front steps. He was badly bruised. He's 8 now and I still think about it and find it hard to understand how I could have been so careless. Had the accident happened when he was in the care of a nanny I would have dismissed her on the spot because, somehow, you expect nannies to not make the same stupid, slapdash mistakes you as a mother might make. That may be unfair and irrational, but it's how I feel. Personally, I would not be able to continue employing your nanny.

With regard to employees rights, try reading the Discipline and Dismissals section at ACAS.

Having a meeting is good idea, as it is part of the statutory disciplinary procedure.
- Statutory Disciplinary Procedure - From ACAS Website -

• If an employer is contemplating dismissal - or action short of dismissal such as loss of pay or seniority - they must follow a three-step disciplinary procedure. This statutory procedure involves:

• a statement in writing of what it is the employee is alleged to have done
• a meeting to discuss the situation, and
• the right of appeal

• If an employer does not follow the minimum procedure then an employment tribunal may judge the dismissal 'automatically unfair'. Compensation will increase or decrease - by between 10-50% - depending on whether the employer or employee failed to adhere to the new law.

---

I think you need to be clear about your objectives for this meeting.
are you trying to find out what happened, so you can make a decision because you don't hav enough information at the moment?
are you intending to discipline, possibly dismiss her? if so, do you need more information, and what is that?
or are you trying to find some common ground so you can all be happy to continue with the relationship?
you need to be clear about this for your sake and also for her's - tbh this is her career at stake and it is only fair to her for you to clarify your purposes upfront.

Do follow the procedures posted by nannynick because even if you have sound grounds to dismiss (if you do this) it would be classed as automatically unfair dismissal if correct procedure were not followed.

To be honest its very very bad she didn't notice and that she left you child alone in bath. If it was a nursery and this happened (although unlikely but something similar) wouldn't everyone be saying she needed to be dismissed or/and that the child be removed from the nursery asap? (trying to demonstrate that just because she is a 'friend' is it different) If someone at my nursery made this sort of mistake i'm afraid they would have to go, being proactive with safety an upmost priority. If child wasn't in bath and nanny hadn't been in there so did not have chance to see the white spirit it would be different in my view.

Hope you get it sorted, and so glad your LO if ok now.

Speaking as someone who has employed a nanny and had to deal with legal disciplinary aspects I would first of all say that you should make the point to her up front that leaving a 2.5 year old in a bath unattended is negligence and you consider it to be grounds for immediate dismissal. I think that if it ever came to it, no body could legally dispute that. I would not even get caught up in discussion of whether you have ever done this or the white spirit aspect of it etc I would just make that point up front and ask her if she understands that.

You can then say that the meeting is to discuss the incident and what can be learned from it and to discuss whether or not you feel that you would be willing to give her a second chance and give her a written warning instead of dismissing her.

Usually things are less clear cut and disciplinary procedures might have to apply but I think that she really has no grounds to claim unfair dismissal if you do decide to dismiss her - you would simply have to put in writing that she had left the child unattended in the bath and you consider this to be grounds for immediate dismissal.

What you decide to do would be up to you and how you feel about keeping her on. I do think the white spirit aspect of it is only her fault because she left the child in the first place. To be honest I think you are as much at fault as she is for allowing it to be sat there so I would not focus on that. If she starts up about how it shouldnt have been there etc, you can accept that as a separate issue but say your concern is that the child was left in the bath unattended.

If she disputes that she was in the wrong then that would worry me. If she accepts it and is okay to continue the discussion on the basis of lets see if we can learn from it and move on and accept a written warning, then I can see the possibility of giving her a second chance.

How long has she worked for you? If it's less than a year, she can't claim for unfair dismissal unless it is to do with some very specific issues, such as pregnancy. See Nannynick's helpful link.

I'd think very seriously about dismissing her or issuing a formal, written warning. Yes, parents may make mistakes, but you pay her to give 100 per cent attention to the children. I honestly believe you should be extra-careful if you are a childcarer. Even as a parent you tend to be much more careful if you are looking after someone else's children, don't you?

I have been following this thread - just a little point regarding her rights - it sounds as though she has not been with you long is that right?

If it's less than a year there is no obligation to follow the statutory procedure, you could just fire her if you want to, without all that palaver. She has no unfair dismissal rights before a year's service unless there's some kind of discrimination involved.

If it's more than a year's service you do hvae to follow the statutory procedure but I don't think it would be unreasonable to dismiss having followed it, I'm sure this could be seen as gross misconduct, so no need to go through warnings, etc

x-post edam

Read through the thread - some good advice on here.

Have I got it right that the white spirit had paintbrushes in it (in a cup or something)? Then I would be equally pissed off with the decorators for leaving it there, especially because they know you have children. In that case it is understandable that the nanny didn't spot it.

Fwiw I don't think it's a huge problem leaving a child that age in the bath alone briefly - I did with my dd, we lived in a flat when she was that age, and I used to make sure I chatted to her when I was out of the bathroom so I knew she was ok.

She could have only been out for a couple of seconds - plenty enough time for him to tip the stuff everywhere.

I think your conduct through this has been really good, obviously you were upset and it's probably the best thing you could have done to give you all some breathing space.

I also think that your nanny responded well to this accident. She showered him and took him to the hospital. To be honest she would have known you would have been upset, if she was less of a nanny she could have completely covered the incident up and you would never have known. So thank god she behaved as she did.

She is probably mortified. See how it goes at the meeting, I imagine that she will be really apologetic and will promise to be ultra careful in future. I would give her a second chance.

And don't feel guilty. I know it's easier said than done, I have worked full time since dd was tiny, and there have been various times when she has hurt herself, and I have been crucified that I wasn't there. It absolutely doesn't make you less of a mum. So try not to feel too bad.

I think you should give her another chance. In a way, the test of a good child minder/nanny etc is not that accidents never happen (because, clearly, they do) but more importantly how they deal with them.

I think your nanny dealt with everything admirably and it would be a shame to lose her over this.

I would be inclined to trust her more as a result of this, not less, but depends how she feels about the incident as well as how you feel about it. If she has been a nanny for donkeys years and nothing 'scary' has ever happened in her previous jobs, she may have taken her eye off the ball and I would be inclined to think she will NEVER let any harm come to them ever again. She also seems to have coped with it exceptionally well. I can imagine someone inexperienced just washing away all the evidence and hoping for the best, especially if the turps were poured into a bath, and were therefore 'diluted' anyway.

Saying that, I would ask her very carefully where she was and why... if she had nipped to another room to grab a towel that is one thing, but if she was downstairs putting the kettle on or chatting to the postman, I'd be inclined to be less understanding.

Health and Safety for Childminders and Home Carers - a course I was due to attend through my local council! They cancelled it, but there ARE things out there. Contact your Early Years training team. I also have a book of Home Safety - it's by Which? but I picked it up in a charity shop. Just little things like correct locks, glass types, etc.

I'm a nanny and as the kids I look after have a bath right after dinner sometimes they run up and little one will jump straight in before I have chance to dash up after him (I am loathe to leave dirty knives on the table so do a 2 min sweep of dishes into the sink before scrambling after him... there's no way calling, "wait for me!" works when he's on a mission to jump in with his older brother!)

At 2.6 they're pretty independent and can sit up straight, and although I am very very scared of leaving him alone in the bath I admit, even as a nanny I have grabbed something from the next room while he's in there. That is all it would take to knock over a bottle - if he slipped, for example, I'm sure enough that I'd hear the bang and be in there scooping him up before he'd had chance to blink. It's just that tipping a bottle over doesn't make a sound.

It does seem to be a case of "these things can happen" but you can bet she will be on the look out now and is probably just as upset as you, and beating herself up as we ARE aware of the responsibility we have looking after someone else's children. I think you need to have a heart to heart with her, she will probably have taken stock of things she will now do differently to prevent anything happening.

Even nurseries and schools have accidents occasionally, and the incident book will be reviewed and procedures put in place to stop this happening. If you really feel she was guilty of gross misconduct, then you are right to give notice, but if you think it could be the shock that something happened, then you have also done the right thing by having a "cooling off" period before you assess whether the incident is forgivable.

Don't worry, either way you are being fair by giving yourself time to calm down and think about how you feel. This allows you to separate the incident from your relationship in your head and let you see things clearer. I hope you can chat to her and come to some kind of conclusion - the fact that you two are close could also help ou both say exactly how you feel about it and help move you forward. That is a plus for a good working relationship. Good luck.

you sound like you really care for your nanny,hope your meeting goes well take lots of tissues(i used to be a nanny and yes i left kids in bath to grab towels ,pjs)would always get them to sing though!!!!.

nor read the whole thread sorry, BUT just to reassure you....my ds now 15 drunk a good half bottle of white spirit when he was 3 and hes perfectly fine! no side effects atall.

i hope you sort things out with your nanny and IMO i think you should give her another chance,

I must be an odd one then. I have never left either of my children in the bath alone at that age, not even for a second. Its not a risk im willing to take.

Ive seen my dd slip backwards when I have been standing right there and although I pulled her straight up, she was terrified.

There's nothing to do that couldnt wait until bath time is finished. The white spirit is another matter entirely, I would be more bothered about the bath. My mother slipped in the bath when she was in her thirties, slashed her head open on a tap, and nearly knocked herself out. It wouldn't be hard for a child to do the same if they suddenly decided to stand up and reach for something!