Why do people complain about childcare costs?

[Teawithsugar40]

I’m a working mother and 65% (was previously near 100%) of my salary goes on childcare, we get by but holidays etc are out of the question. We’re not rich and have small children, it’s just how it is. I don’t resent what we pay and feel quite lucky that we’re a few hundred better off than if I was doing the equally important job of caring for my children full time.
Maybe because when I had my first child there was absolutely no childcare help and scant provision but I really don’t understand so many people these days complaining about childcare costs, especially when it still leaves them better off working? Totally understand single parents needing help and thankfully they have had generous help for years but why are couples who are definitely not on the breadline complaining? Did they seriously think they could have children without making any sacrifices and why do they expect people often worse off them themselves to pay for maintaining their previous lifestyle?

Someone upthread compared it to moaning about cost of running a car - but you can choose an old banger or a brand new car. There is far far less choice over childcare (and would you want the old banger equivalent of childcare anyway?!). MOT and service costs are easily and very visibly available.
Even running an ancient car (ours is nearly 20 years old) and having to budget a certain amount each year in case of something major going wrong is far different to childcare costs.

@IWasFunBeforeMum

I have 2 under 2 and for 2 days a week it's £862 a month. Thats why we moan!

Think I’d of ruled out being able to go back to work for a while with 2 under 2!

Only if you live in a world where you don’t hold men responsible for raising their children.

We DO live in a world/country where that's the case. Especially for single mums!

As I said we don’t have money to spare, unless you call a small budget for kids birthdays, the odd day out etc.

Then you DO have money to spare! TRULY not having money to spare means ONLY having enough for the absolute essentials - food, shelter, clothing, utilities - many many families in THIS country even in work cannot afford these even with benefits support - if you didn't realise this then I genuinely recommend you do some research towards educating yourself wrt what the poorest families in this country are currently dealing with! Why do you think we have so many food banks for starters?

I’ve been in that position. from your posts thus far that seems to me to have been over 20 years ago? I think maybe even over 30 years ago? The benefits system has changed MASSIVELY in that time, in the last decade under this govt it's been undermined hugely! It's a lot worse now!

@Feliana absolutely right percentage of housing costs as part of income also now MUCH higher especially if you rent - and that includes social housing. That's not the cheap option it was many years ago, most is now on a par with the lower end of private rents in the same area

I’ve said all along I don’t begrudge any help at all single parents get

But you don't seem to have expressed any understanding or acknowledgement that it's harder now to be a single parent than it was 20-30 years ago. The help may APPEAR to be more in pure amounts but it doesn't actually reflect the much higher living costs, inflation, higher housing costs etc

Universal credit isn’t some obscure scheme??

I take it you mean in its existence? Because in its practice it bloody well is obscure in many ways! The hoops claimants have to go through now are insane not to mention the barbaric sanction nonsense!

If you were struggling to afford the basics then that’s a problem with our benefits system which needs fixing

A chink of understanding creeps through! Open your mind a little more op!

Jobs are expecting more and more flexibility

You mean employers! While GIVING none and in many cases even acting illegally

while childcare provision is generally fixed hours and needs to be consistent.

Even as a former childcare worker myself I don't understand why there is STILL very scarce provision outside the standard "office hours coverage" even from a business perspective I think nurseries are missing a trick!

Probably golden age of best of all worlds was around 2003-2007

Hardly! This was when I was first a single mum and cm was still deducted from the recipients benefits - whether the nrp paid or not! It was a very difficult time to be a single parent.

If people are struggling with their everyday living costs they should get help towards those costs not everyone just blanket free childcare

Often it's cheaper to give everyone something than to means test it. Means testing involves huge admin costs

just genuinely mystified by this sense of entitlement

And not a hint of irony!

@NotMeekNotObedient

Because after paying my half of the mortgage, food, basic bills, train fare, petrol & half the childcare I've spent my wages and more. Our local nursey is £75 a day and it's not the most expensive one around.

I dont have an amazing wage but far from the minimum wage. I'm the higher earner in our household.

The cost of living is high, wages are low and not even keeping up with inflation.

Agree the cost of living is high and it affects us too but that’s the same whether your paying childcare or a SAHP

Often people’s circumstances change. Divorce, separation. Often women can’t afford childcare or it isn’t available due to council cuts in after school care programmes. Women get stuck in dead end jobs etc.

Because some of us pay £100 a day for nursery. & kids aren't always planned. Even if they are of course you're going to moan about spending the majority of your salary on childcare just so that you can sustain your career.

It's either work for pennies or your career takes a hit. Lose lose.

My childcare costs are soooo expensive, almost my salary and I still Have to arrange for family to do drop-offs and pick ups as typical Childcare doesn't cover my working hours as a nurse

d) people seem to have no idea how astronomical the cost of providing universal free childcare would be

And you seem to have no idea of the much greater cost of not ensuring that quality childcare is available to all.

Honestly OP, you'd be far better advised to educate yourself on childcare issues than spending all this time basically saying how smug you feel about "being prepared for childcare costs."

Over and over again posters have patiently explained to you why it's a matter of equality and mark of a progressive society to ensure high quality childcare is accessible to all, and you either ignore the challenging posts or bat them away with your tired narrative.

Why even ask the question if you're not prepared to listen to the answers?

And why is it that you're proud to unquestioningly accept a situation that directly discriminated against women and children?

@Graphista

Only if you live in a world where you don’t hold men responsible for raising their children.

We DO live in a world/country where that's the case. Especially for single mums!

As I said we don’t have money to spare, unless you call a small budget for kids birthdays, the odd day out etc.

Then you DO have money to spare! TRULY not having money to spare means ONLY having enough for the absolute essentials - food, shelter, clothing, utilities - many many families in THIS country even in work cannot afford these even with benefits support - if you didn't realise this then I genuinely recommend you do some research towards educating yourself wrt what the poorest families in this country are currently dealing with! Why do you think we have so many food banks for starters?

I’ve been in that position. from your posts thus far that seems to me to have been over 20 years ago? I think maybe even over 30 years ago? The benefits system has changed MASSIVELY in that time, in the last decade under this govt it's been undermined hugely! It's a lot worse now!

@Feliana absolutely right percentage of housing costs as part of income also now MUCH higher especially if you rent - and that includes social housing. That's not the cheap option it was many years ago, most is now on a par with the lower end of private rents in the same area

I’ve said all along I don’t begrudge any help at all single parents get

But you don't seem to have expressed any understanding or acknowledgement that it's harder now to be a single parent than it was 20-30 years ago. The help may APPEAR to be more in pure amounts but it doesn't actually reflect the much higher living costs, inflation, higher housing costs etc

Universal credit isn’t some obscure scheme??

I take it you mean in its existence? Because in its practice it bloody well is obscure in many ways! The hoops claimants have to go through now are insane not to mention the barbaric sanction nonsense!

If you were struggling to afford the basics then that’s a problem with our benefits system which needs fixing

A chink of understanding creeps through! Open your mind a little more op!

Jobs are expecting more and more flexibility

You mean employers! While GIVING none and in many cases even acting illegally

while childcare provision is generally fixed hours and needs to be consistent.

Even as a former childcare worker myself I don't understand why there is STILL very scarce provision outside the standard "office hours coverage" even from a business perspective I think nurseries are missing a trick!

Probably golden age of best of all worlds was around 2003-2007

Hardly! This was when I was first a single mum and cm was still deducted from the recipients benefits - whether the nrp paid or not! It was a very difficult time to be a single parent.

If people are struggling with their everyday living costs they should get help towards those costs not everyone just blanket free childcare

Often it's cheaper to give everyone something than to means test it. Means testing involves huge admin costs

just genuinely mystified by this sense of entitlement

And not a hint of irony!

I’ve been a single parent during times when they received a lot less support than now and know people currently on benefits so don’t think I need educating about such matters. Sorry if I felt receiving 80% of my childcare costs paid for felt very generous compared to receiving nothing at all. There are definitely things that could be improved with the system. The tax credit system was far better

@Graphista

I can tell you 2003-2007 was far better than pre 2001!! I also had my cm 100% deducted from my income support at this time!!

@Graphista

And we’re you actually a single parent 25 years ago?? I don’t mean one that was left a house in a divorce settlement or on a professional salary but one starting from absolutely nothing? I do actually have the lived experience of being a single parent then and up till fairly recently and now being a parent in an average earning couple so think I do have some idea of what I’m talking about

Speaking as a ex childminder, I left the profession last year, due to the governments underfunding of the funded hours parents get from 3/4 it was just under a £1 an hour less than I charged. So I would get £3.80 instead of the £4.50 I charged. They paid for extra hours etc but it was like getting blood out of a stone the families really did not want to pay and expected me wait until they could be bothered to pay some even thought I should not be charging at all as they were keyworkers. They thought so long as they paid before they were next in it did not matter if payment date had been and gone and I too had bills to pay. During the first lockdown loads of childminders left the profession locally and quite a few preschools have now closed their doors as well as they can not afford to stay open on the funded money, NI goes up as does National Minimum wage yet our funding was going up by 8p in April! If families get there way and the government to fund all there childcare which the government already can’t afford it will mean providers will be paid even less and in turn all close down = no childcare to be had.

@Woeismethischristmas

Often people’s circumstances change. Divorce, separation. Often women can’t afford childcare or it isn’t available due to council cuts in after school care programmes. Women get stuck in dead end jobs etc.

Totally get this and all the way through have said single parents absolutely deserve the 80% childcare cost subsidy most are eligible for

@Apple40

Speaking as a ex childminder, I left the profession last year, due to the governments underfunding of the funded hours parents get from 3/4 it was just under a £1 an hour less than I charged. So I would get £3.80 instead of the £4.50 I charged. They paid for extra hours etc but it was like getting blood out of a stone the families really did not want to pay and expected me wait until they could be bothered to pay some even thought I should not be charging at all as they were keyworkers. They thought so long as they paid before they were next in it did not matter if payment date had been and gone and I too had bills to pay. During the first lockdown loads of childminders left the profession locally and quite a few preschools have now closed their doors as well as they can not afford to stay open on the funded money, NI goes up as does National Minimum wage yet our funding was going up by 8p in April! If families get there way and the government to fund all there childcare which the government already can’t afford it will mean providers will be paid even less and in turn all close down = no childcare to be had.

That would be so unfair on the childcare sector. We’ll to pay a supplement when we start receiving our youngest child’s funded hours (which we can also claim 20% off like all working parents) and don’t begrudge a penny of it, just consider ourselves lucky to receive the funded hours at all. We really do appreciate our nursery and childminder!

Most expensive childcare in the world. Why can't the UK do better for its children?
Of course people should complain, in the same way they should complain if free education for all wasn't an option. It's completely uncivilised.

I think I’ve found the answer to my original question. It’s just a case of expectations, maybe a generation thing.
My son’s fairly relaxed about having to take out 50k in loans to go to uni, I think it’s awful as in my day it was all free and it was considered admirable you wanting to better yourself. Definitely not something you should be expected to pay for.
Whereas when I had my first child it was half expected that you would have to give up work unless your mum or another relative stepped in or a childminder/nursery was a possibility but there wasn’t the provision that exists these days.
The provision and help these days is so much better but then today’s new parents have never known anything else and it wouldn’t cross many professional mc parents minds to think one of them might give up work, there’s a much stronger ideology that mothers should be at work and many mc parents already have financial commitments which would mean a major downsize if they sacrificed a salary

@RobotValkyrie

Most expensive childcare in the world. Why can't the UK do better for its children? Of course people should complain, in the same way they should complain if free education for all wasn't an option. It's completely uncivilised.

This isn’t the children it really affects though as the poorest get 80% of their childcare costs paid, it’s parents who struggle to maintain a middle class lifestyle while paying these childcare costs e.g. a bedroom for each child, baby swim classes, 2 cars or living in London even without those things. Perhaps it’s hard as their parents afforded that without struggling whereas people forget there were many people back then who we’re also far worse off than anything today

Naw. I think it's just that you're goady. Dunno why. Maybe you think other people have it better than you, maybe you're just a bit tapped. But you're goady. No other reason for starting a thread on a parenting site in the middle of a pandemic and an economic crisis telling parents they have it easy.

@Teawithsugar40

I think I’ve found the answer to my original question. It’s just a case of expectations, maybe a generation thing. My son’s fairly relaxed about having to take out 50k in loans to go to uni, I think it’s awful as in my day it was all free and it was considered admirable you wanting to better yourself. Definitely not something you should be expected to pay for. Whereas when I had my first child it was half expected that you would have to give up work unless your mum or another relative stepped in or a childminder/nursery was a possibility but there wasn’t the provision that exists these days. The provision and help these days is so much better but then today’s new parents have never known anything else and it wouldn’t cross many professional mc parents minds to think one of them might give up work, there’s a much stronger ideology that mothers should be at work and many mc parents already have financial commitments which would mean a major downsize if they sacrificed a salary

Crap. I must be your age and I don't identify with anything you say. I had a nanny and later an aupair , and expected to work. Partly not to waste my education and partly because it was the early 80s and women were learning they didn't have to, and probably shouldn't, rely on men. And also because I needed to pay towards the mortgage, like most working women have had to. Unless you are in your 70s or 80s, you must have seen the same conditions.

Nursery for my two children was £100 a day. I was worse off working and paying childcare, than being a SAHP which I soon switched to.

[quote Teawithsugar40]@teaandchocolate1

Yes we pay about £700 per month for part time nursery and childminder with the tax free deduction, £5 an hour per child to keep them safe, educated, entertained and safe is fantastic value! If they weren’t providing that service/care then I wouldn’t be earning anything at all or be able to keep my career going. I just don’t get couples that aren’t even struggling saying how awful it is that half their salary or 80% or whatever if they’ve chosen to have children with small age gaps goes on childcare. If they’re in an unexpected situation e.g one partner became ill or twins then totally sympathise but otherwise what did they expect?[/quote]
Wow £5 an hour is cheap - are you up north?

@somehowsunshine

Yes we are :)

@somehowsunshine

Nursery for my two children was £100 a day. I was worse off working and paying childcare, than being a SAHP which I soon switched to.

We would be too if had 2 in nursery, suppose would just kind of be what we’d expect if we had 2 close together. That probably one of us would have to stay at home unless we borrowed what we needed to cover the childcare. Perhaps worth it career wise if only for a few months

@Curiousmouse

Maybe it’s a class or culture thing or where we lived but most mothers didn’t work when I was growing up in the 80s, I knew a single mother who was left a mortgaged house by her husband and was a professional, she had school aged children and worked and wasn’t too badly off but most other single mothers were very poor. Couples tended to be alright if one earned a decent salary and have own house but otherwise if equivalent to minimum wage those families would be quite poor but not as badly off as single parents.

By 90s was common for mums to go back to work when kids at school. By time I had my first many but not all professional mums did but still not many single or non professional mums, not until the children started school.
Nowadays know a few mothers who are SAHM but more the exception and and even if partner earns decent salary they generally have to be extremely frugal, buying most of their clothes and toys off fb, never eating out etc. Everyone was a lot better off in the early 00s whether they were professional couples, single parents, minimum wage but a big decline in standard of living since but still not anything like it was for the poorest in the 80s and 90s

I am in London and pay under £900 for 4 full days childcare after the TFC deduction. I completely agree that it's horribly expensive and should be subsidised (we're lucky to have a spare room for a lodger who covers much of it). But there are cheaper options around than £1400 for 4 days. That is just crazy 😞