Why do people complain about childcare costs?

[Teawithsugar40]

I’m a working mother and 65% (was previously near 100%) of my salary goes on childcare, we get by but holidays etc are out of the question. We’re not rich and have small children, it’s just how it is. I don’t resent what we pay and feel quite lucky that we’re a few hundred better off than if I was doing the equally important job of caring for my children full time.
Maybe because when I had my first child there was absolutely no childcare help and scant provision but I really don’t understand so many people these days complaining about childcare costs, especially when it still leaves them better off working? Totally understand single parents needing help and thankfully they have had generous help for years but why are couples who are definitely not on the breadline complaining? Did they seriously think they could have children without making any sacrifices and why do they expect people often worse off them themselves to pay for maintaining their previous lifestyle?

@Curiousmouse

What a nasty pitiless thread, and at a time when so many are really struggling. I certainly understand why people complain, even though I'm fortunate enough to be well past those days.

How is it nasty and pitiless to say I fully support people receiving help when they need it??? Just not people who’s only complaint is the cost of someone caring for their child??

Oh and round where I live childminders are empire likely to charge about £6+ and when o asked if they'd take my dc part time they said no because they can't lose the place to a ft dc. This was only after I went pt and dc was pt at a nursery attached to school.

When dc was born I worked ft and all the childminders shut before I got home from work so I had to hire a nanny. Now that is expensive, time consuming and you basically employ someone on a legal contract so you have to ensure their taxes are correct their paperwork is intact, pay them annual leave whilst also covering their annual leave with someone else and that your home is safe for them to attend. Now that is extortionate and stressful you also have to manage the person that looks after your baby and you can't just sack them if they've been with you a long time and all because there often isn't any alternative.

@itshappened

Where I live in london, I pay £1700 for full time childcare until my child is 2, when it drops to £1500ish per month. I have two young children, and it is a lot of money for them both. Fortunately both my husband and I have quite good jobs, but it is by no means an insignificant cost to us.

It’s not an insignificant cost to us either, far from it

All I can say is well done you for not complaining about childcare costs. How amazing you are for not being affected by the costs so badly that you have a little whinge to your friends every now and then. Must be lovely for you. Well done.

Have a nice evening love

You seem to forget national insurance plus childcare pay in holidays

You're definitely not an accountant!

@pineapplepenelope

Oh and round where I live childminders are empire likely to charge about £6+ and when o asked if they'd take my dc part time they said no because they can't lose the place to a ft dc. This was only after I went pt and dc was pt at a nursery attached to school.

When dc was born I worked ft and all the childminders shut before I got home from work so I had to hire a nanny. Now that is expensive, time consuming and you basically employ someone on a legal contract so you have to ensure their taxes are correct their paperwork is intact, pay them annual leave whilst also covering their annual leave with someone else and that your home is safe for them to attend. Now that is extortionate and stressful you also have to manage the person that looks after your baby and you can't just sack them if they've been with you a long time and all because there often isn't any alternative.

I wouldn’t care for someone else’s child for £6 an hour and if you live in an expensive area it’s also expensive for the childminder to live. Why should they give up the income of a full time place? I work shifts so looked into employing nannies so know exactly what a headache it can be, yes perhaps it would help if it could be made an easier process, I agree

People complain because the costs are extortionate and many people are better off not working at all, and it shouldn't be that way. Fortunately DP and I are relatively high earners - by no means loaded, but we are able to pay for childcare and not necessarily struggle. But if I were to become single and assuming DP contributed nothing, the costs would overwhelm me, even on a higher than average salary. Again, it shouldn't be that way. That's why people complain and I don't begrudge them that.

@Teawithsugar40 I'd start moaning if I was you. We can't change this if we point fingers. It's terrible.

Other countries have made things a lot better for new parents without these crazy costs. For me moaning was about hoping one day new parents don't face these costs. I've always been able to afford my childcare costs but there's no way I can sit back and relax about the cost of it without thinking there is definitely a better model than what's out there in the U.K.

@Teawithsugar40 it's because I didn't live in an expensive area it was so difficult to get anyone! And none of them worked past 6pm l, I got home at 8pm! I didn't have the choice to use them anyway

@BeardyButton

I totally agree. I was only saying something similar to one of my children recently. She was complaining about having to go up chimneys to sweep. I was telling her how she should be happy to have any job at all, even if it just pays for a half loaf of stale bread. I mean it is just right and proper that our landlord insists we pay 110 percent of our incomes on rent. He has an estate to fund and everything.

😂

@bcc89

All I can say is well done you for not complaining about childcare costs. How amazing you are for not being affected by the costs so badly that you have a little whinge to your friends every now and then. Must be lovely for you. Well done.

Have a nice evening love

We are very definitely affected by childcare costs!! Yes we do mention it to friends but not in a way that implies that it’s something we shouldn’t have to pay or we don’t think the people providing that care aren’t providing us with something that is well worth it or provides us with the opportunity to both pursue our careers. Just that it’s a cost for now, fact of life of working and having small children. When I had my first there wasn’t even the opportunity to work, maybe that’s why I feel lucky to not only have the opportunity to work but also now have a bit left over too. I just don’t understand people who are better off than us feeling so indignant over childcare costs

[quote pineapplepenelope]@Teawithsugar40 it's because I didn't live in an expensive area it was so difficult to get anyone! And none of them worked past 6pm l, I got home at 8pm! I didn't have the choice to use them anyway[/quote]
Your not the only person who couldn’t do the job they wanted because childminders don’t all work late, I had to give up my career for several years for this reason. Perhaps there should be more jobs within childcare hours

@Teawithsugar40 the irony. So why does that not bother you? This is exactly why I would complain.because some people have to give up their careers because of the cost of it. That's sad. There are a lot of countries that have much better systems. Why wouldn't someone complain that the U.K. is behind them?

Although we did plan for childcare costs we didn't realise quite how much it would be. We were paying over £1200 a month for 3 days a week, which dropped to around £700 a month with the 'free' hours. Which is far higher than the average amounts you see online. We'd anticipated it would be higher due to location but not that much higher.

Trouble is, even looking at average figures doesn't help you prepare. Individual nurseries, childminders etc don't tend to have prices on their website so you only find out the reality if you ask. And I hadn't realised how little choice there would be (there were no childminders within walking distance of our house and two nurseries, only one of which offered the hours needed to cover commuting).

The free hours for 3+ were also really misleading. We needed up to 30 hours a week to cover 3 days work so I thought our childcare bills would almost vanish at 3. However, it's the term after they turn 3 (which can be several months difference for some children) the funding kicks in, it's only in termtime, so the rest of the year still needs paying for. And it doesn't cover the full cost to the provider so ours was offering it in sessions - we could only claim 6 sessions a week for our 3 days, and each session was only 2.75 hours.

Yes we used tax free childcare to reduce the cost by 20% but it's still far higher than friends elsewhere in Europe were paying.

[quote pineapplepenelope]@Teawithsugar40 I'd start moaning if I was you. We can't change this if we point fingers. It's terrible.

Other countries have made things a lot better for new parents without these crazy costs. For me moaning was about hoping one day new parents don't face these costs. I've always been able to afford my childcare costs but there's no way I can sit back and relax about the cost of it without thinking there is definitely a better model than what's out there in the U.K. [/quote]
Suppose we just kind of expected we’d be a bit broke having kids, we do feel very grateful we have enough for what we really need even if not everything we’d like and know it’s not forever

It’s particularly crippling for single women I think who typically earn less than men.

When my child was in daycare (London), I was paying £2400 a month. I had no real choice because of my working hours. I was lucky to be a high earner else I couldn’t have worked. I was a single parent at that time.

It’s never right when there are instances where women are better off SAH than working.

@RidingMyBike

That sounds like the going rate for our area.

Childminders charge £10 per hour and are self employed by the time they take off food, tax, holidays they take, sickness, overheads it’s not much.

Nursery’s charge around the same £100 per day, nursery workers getting paid a low wage for huge responsibility.

Nannies roughly £120/130 per day.

Why did you not know the costs for your area?

@Pinchofnom

We did this until we did a part-time nanny share and au pair while I worked part-time for a while.

It wasn’t easy!

But the childcare costs makes it sound like it’s the providers that are making life hard, when it isn’t their fault. It’s the government’s fault.

Because the purpose of a government is to take our taxes and use them to improve the lives of citizens in the most meaningful way that they can. One of the ways that they can do this is by heavily subsidising childcare. I've seen this work in lots of places. It works very well in Sweden for example.

Subsidised childcare goes a long way to evening out under-representation if women in certain industries as well as unemployment stats for women and it is good for the economy overall because people aren't considering not going back to work because their whole wage will be eaten up by childcare costs. People will also have more disposable money to put back into the economy. It's good for social mobility as it doesn't price lower income families out of the employment market. It's also good for children from lower income families as they are able to access the experiences that nursery can offer if their parents wish to send them.

I was already rolling my eyes and then I read

Totally understand single parents needing help and thankfully they have had generous help for years

Wtf?!

Where you getting that bullshit from?!

Clearly you are not a low or even middle rate earner and certainly you're fucking CLUELESS when it comes to single parents!

so plan before you have kids

Peoples circumstances change!

Never more so than the last couple of years!

Shocking lack of empathy or basic understanding on this thread!

Why do some people not understand everyone's circumstances are different?

The majority of the time on mn "I don't understand" really means "I disapprove of"!

You can't panic about a falling birth rate while simultaneously making it prohibitively expensive to have children

Totally agree

I think the main problem is that wages are FAR too low (especially for women!) and housing costs are insanely high which means that money left over is minimal and so childcare costs DO massively eat into any households budget esp when the dc aren't yet at school.

In terms of single parenthood op I can ASSURE you that the help provided is NOT and NEVER HAS BEEN "generous" certainly not in the last 20 years!

I raised dd as a single parent and I had to watch every penny doing so and I am not a spendthrift type person indeed I am a champion bargain Hunter and budgeter!

Add in the fact that when I was first a single mum the rules then were that csa calculation amount of cm that you SHOULD have been receiving was deducted penny for penny from whatever benefit you were on (I was working full time so it was income support then as a nmw job - because I couldn't get a higher paid job as I could only work hours around childcare) whether the nrp paid or not! My ex didn't pay anything for almost 3 years. So in that time I had to on many occasions go without food, clothes etc so that my dd didn't! There simply wasn't enough money coming in to my household to feed us both! And I was super savvy and frugal I can't imagine what people who weren't managed then - got into tons of high cost debt probably!

Then thankfully the govt of the day "realised" that the problem of exes not paying cm despite the csa meant families/households were in poverty and that rule was changed.

This improved things very slightly! But still requires very very careful budgeting.

For me I then had to deal with becoming disabled and unable to work at all which led to a whole lot of other crap to deal with!

But even if I hadn't I would still have been struggling!

DO NOT claim the support given to single parents is or ever was GENEROUS! Certainly not in the last 20 years! It's bollocks!

When I had dd I was happily married for several years, had a career and my health. By the time she was 5 I was a divorced disabled single parent watching every penny!

Shit happens!

This last couple of years I have seen friends and family crumple under the stresses of the pandemic, some have split up, some have "only" been made redundant or seen their hours (and therefore pay!) massively cut! Then there have been huge backlogs in benefits claims because the Dwp have been overwhelmed by both volume of claimants AND constant rule changes (many of them bloody unnecessary and making minimal - I'm talking pennies - difference to claims payments - this is from the horses mouth as I have a few in my circle who work there inc one at a fairly senior level who reports that the most senior within the department have repeatedly TOLD central govt basically to stop faffing about so they can get the backlog cleared! At points they were working 14/15 hour days with no extra pay themselves! And I'm not generally one to sympathise with working for that department!)

Many have been made redundant from jobs they've been in almost THIRTY - FORTY YEARS! Because the companies they worked for went under - try finding a new job in a "trade" with high unemployment when you've no other experience or qualifications AND no access to additional training or education for free AND you're in your 40's/50's AND you're a woman and in some cases also not white, and in some cases not British born!

Between the pandemic and brexit and a badly run economy generally it's a complete disaster for many families!

Because it is essentially a tax on women.

Also true! Especially when nrps (mainly men) STILL aren't made to pay half!

very few women are actually financially worse off working

Where are you getting this from? This govt? Dwp?

I very much doubt it's true!

It needs to be MUCH better organised (it's ludicrous that there aren't weekend, bank holiday and evening and even overnight options) AND MUCH more state subsidised as it is in other countries

I am an ex nanny and childminder myself so I don't think those providing the childcare should be poorly paid (as they currently are) but I do think that decent wages should be partly covered by subsidisation but ALSO we need much lower housing costs - and that's a whole other board in terms of corruption and nonsense legislation!

and the psychological impact of paying to work by the time my travel card and other work related expenses were taken into consideration.

Yes! Govt "better off in work" calculations always fail to take into account the COSTS of working

if the government raises taxes (or NI), there will be an outcry

They ARE raising NI - no major outcry

We are WAY too passive in this country accepting the crappy way it's being run - and has been for MANY years but especially under this govt - again whole other board!

@RidingMyBike

Although we did plan for childcare costs we didn't realise quite how much it would be. We were paying over £1200 a month for 3 days a week, which dropped to around £700 a month with the 'free' hours. Which is far higher than the average amounts you see online. We'd anticipated it would be higher due to location but not that much higher.

Trouble is, even looking at average figures doesn't help you prepare. Individual nurseries, childminders etc don't tend to have prices on their website so you only find out the reality if you ask. And I hadn't realised how little choice there would be (there were no childminders within walking distance of our house and two nurseries, only one of which offered the hours needed to cover commuting).

The free hours for 3+ were also really misleading. We needed up to 30 hours a week to cover 3 days work so I thought our childcare bills would almost vanish at 3. However, it's the term after they turn 3 (which can be several months difference for some children) the funding kicks in, it's only in termtime, so the rest of the year still needs paying for. And it doesn't cover the full cost to the provider so ours was offering it in sessions - we could only claim 6 sessions a week for our 3 days, and each session was only 2.75 hours.

Yes we used tax free childcare to reduce the cost by 20% but it's still far higher than friends elsewhere in Europe were paying.

I do sympathise, had friends who had April babies then discovered at the last minute they wouldn’t be would be getting the funded hours until September. So many things find as a mare when you have children and definitely some things could be made easier!! I suppose I’m coming from the perspective that it’s always been a mare for us to sort childcare, so we feel so lucky that we’re now in a position that we not only have great childcare sorted but that we now even had a bit left over compared to previously (which is going to finish paying money we had to borrow to get by before) So I suppose I just can’t understand people better off than us feeling so indignant about childcare being the expense it is, especially if it’s leaving them a proportion of one of their salaries so they are actually better off working.

I have 2 under 2 and for 2 days a week it's £862 a month. Thats why we moan!

@Tillsforthrills because the costs aren't easily available and there was no indication how much much more than the average they'd be. We weren't in London. Two nurseries we visited only gave the costs info out after a visit. I only found out childminder costs after talking to friends I'd made at toddler groups, which I only started going to after having my baby(!).

The various average costs guides are really low compared to what we ended up paying.

[quote RidingMyBike]@Tillsforthrills because the costs aren't easily available and there was no indication how much much more than the average they'd be. We weren't in London. Two nurseries we visited only gave the costs info out after a visit. I only found out childminder costs after talking to friends I'd made at toddler groups, which I only started going to after having my baby(!).

The various average costs guides are really low compared to what we ended up paying. [/quote]
Yes agree with that, those average childcare cost tables see in a lot of articles are very out of date and strangely always seem to give a part time example

Because after paying my half of the mortgage, food, basic bills, train fare, petrol & half the childcare I've spent my wages and more. Our local nursey is £75 a day and it's not the most expensive one around.

I dont have an amazing wage but far from the minimum wage. I'm the higher earner in our household.

The cost of living is high, wages are low and not even keeping up with inflation.