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Paid childcare

Discuss everything related to paid childcare here, including childminders, nannies, nurseries and au pairs.

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Original poster

CM refusing tax free childcare

117 replies

CCS83 · 03/02/2019 15:32

Hi
So my CM who my son goes to full time is refusing to sign up to the tax free childcare account - I have offered to set the payments up so they go out a week to 10 days earlier than how I pay currently but still being refused.
My employer is phasing our vouchers and the tax free account is worth circa £200 a month to me so a massive amount to lose.
I may be wrong but I suspect her objections lie in the fact she doesn’t declare all her childminding income to HMRC. Now I’m not nieve I know it does go on but it is now having a huge effect on our finances?
My employers payroll has said most works will close vouchers soon and move everyone on to the tax free account to close the current loophole
Is threatening to pull my son unless she signs up too extreme?? We pay her more than our mortgage in fees so would be a significant drop in income for her??

OP posts:

Are your children’s vaccines up to date?

Set a reminder

NorthernLurker · 04/02/2019 07:27

I suspect the op knows the CM is paid in cash for some work. If she does any extra hours for example.

I would be annoyed too op. I'd look for somewhere else.

Shazafied · 04/02/2019 07:34

There is no way for childminders to check if the money had been sent so just have to wait for it to appear in their bank account

Ummmm , just like if parents were paying by bank transfer then ? You can’t phone the parents bank either !

GeorgieTheGorgeousGoat · 04/02/2019 07:39

She won’t know that, she might suspect it but she can’t know. And even then, a cash transaction isn’t illegal!

Many childminders need to prove their income for mortgages, loans, and countless other reasons. They won’t be trying to underplay their income at the risk of not being able to mortgage their home.

Just because a cm chooses to receive a certain type of payment doesn’t mean she is on the fiddle and it’s very insulting for you to suggest so. It’s been explained why they aren’t easy methods for cms to accept. I don’t accept cheques but that doesn’t mean I’m committing fraud ffs!

GeorgieTheGorgeousGoat · 04/02/2019 07:41

Erm bank transfers are instant. I can check my own account to see if they’ve paid.

jannier · 04/02/2019 08:07

4 weeks of phone calls and no money for bills so having to fund a lone is a good enough reason for me a parents promise to pay if its late doesn't mean they actually will or that they really did make the payment as the GDPR regs mean I cant be told and now another month is due. Add to that loosing £1 for every funded hour the government have got me funding a lot of free childcare while I struggle to pay bills. No more tax free childcare.

AlocAcoc · 04/02/2019 08:31

FYI you won’t get £200 a month from TFC. It is a maximum of £2000 per year. So you would only get about £20 per month more than you do with vouchers.

flamingofridays · 04/02/2019 09:06

surely you can ask if there is anything pending into your account?

flamingofridays · 04/02/2019 09:08

Georgie you're being very defensive. I think op's question Is fine to ask, especially as its costing her a lot of money a month!!

I wouldn't want a child minder with so much attitude tbh

GeorgieTheGorgeousGoat · 04/02/2019 09:43

Yes I am defensive and I don’t care if you think I have attitude. I’m currently £1000 short for my bills so far and struggling all because parents haven’t paid on time this month. So yes, I am stressed by it. And if you as a parent think that’s unreasonable, then frankly, I wouldn’t want you as a client either.

flamingofridays · 04/02/2019 09:50

I never said people paying you late was reasonable, did I?

I personally have never paid nursery late, so I think you're aiming your shitty comments at the wrong person.

All I said was is that when you have your own business these things do happen and if I was in your position I would aim to have something to fall back on. I understand this isn't always possible, but it is obviously something that is preferable.

Also, OP had offered to pay her CM early, so its unlikely her CM would find herself in your position. I still think its unreasonable for CM's to decline TFC payments, but they can do as they like. I wouldn't use someone like that though.

GeorgieTheGorgeousGoat · 04/02/2019 10:04

And equally, I do take these schemes because I’m not trying to be difficult for parents. I’m trying to explain why some cms wouldn’t. They are a pain.

You’ve said you don’t use a Cm anyway. Your nursery isn’t one person relying on a few families to pay their own personal bills. They indeed could cover a payment or two being late by a few days/ weeks. I can’t. I live pay day to pay day. I’m sorry if you think I should have something better sorted, but I don’t. Many people live this way. I don’t have money in my budget to produce a buffer right now. I don’t know what else you want me to do.

flamingofridays · 04/02/2019 10:16

Georgie im not saying you should do anything. And I already said I understand that having some money saved is not always doable.

stop taking everything so personally!

underneaththeash · 04/02/2019 10:20

Just find another childminder who's signed up to the scheme. She's completely within her rights to not sign up, just as you are within yours to move your child.

£200/month is a lot of money.

jannier · 04/02/2019 14:33

flamingofridays - the problem about putting money aside for a childminder is that they have no business or start up loan they have a bare minimum wage when they typically start many not even making a 20 year olds minimum wage. They cant take on more customers as their numbers are strictly controlled and even opening longer does not guarantee them earning as much as £3 an hour for working to 9 or later or on A Sunday as your not likely to be full in these times Remember they don't earn 100% of the fee that's paid and they also work lots of unpaid hours not just on accounts but essential training, printing and putting together learning journeys, report and activities as well as evidence for Ofsted like reflective practice journals and risk assessments so a typical 7 to 6 day is often 6.30 to 7 or as late as 10. So whilst one customer paying you late wouldn't break your bank for most child-minders it does and yet they still have ot buy food for that child and activities as well as their own bills.
If they take funding they will be paid less by the Local authority with many LA's making them wait to the middles or end of a term for the money yet they have to feed and occupy those children while waiting for the council to have the only remaining income paid late as well is enough to not only close the childminder down but to loose some their homes and credit ratings. Many of the existing childminders did not choose to take on funding. voucher schemes or tax free childcare and may have been running when families actually paid 100% of their children's care fees with no help for 5 years per child and moaned one hell of a lot less about doing so even though it was still a huge amount of money they just knew it was their responsibility to pay for their child or choose not to have them.

Tanith · 04/02/2019 14:46

Flamingofridays you made it personal when you told Georgie you wouldn't want a childminder with so much attitude.

flamingofridays · 04/02/2019 15:01

tannith well I wouldn't, am I not allowed to say that?

the rest of it wasn't aimed at her personally was it?

Many of the existing childminders did not choose to take on funding. voucher schemes or tax free childcare and may have been running when families actually paid 100% of their children's care fees with no help for 5 years per child and moaned one hell of a lot less about doing so even though it was still a huge amount of money they just knew it was their responsibility to pay for their child or choose not to have them

well that's both offensive and stupid isn't it, if you can pay £200 a month less, why the hell wouldn't you?

(ps I have been paying 100% of my childs fees since he was 9 months old)

flamingofridays · 04/02/2019 15:01

(until TFC started!)

jannier · 04/02/2019 16:41

flamingofridays...you missed my point the cm's don't pay childcare but may have started work as cm's before schemes came in when everybody just paid the cost over time they have had their terms and conditions forced on them by Government policy even down to dictating a rate (unlike any other self employed person the government promised parents free childcare and then 2 years later said to providers this is what we will pay you for your work and these are the conditions you will provide it under) so for them times have got harder whilst standards are going up (cm work now is very regulated and a growing number have higher qualifications than nursery managers, qualifications self financed as part of their cpd), This impacts on their ability to cope with late payments and unlike you they cant just absorb the cost of the shortfall until someone pays.

Parents on the other hand are getting more help than ever and some don't seem to be appreciating it.

icannotremember · 04/02/2019 16:48

Parents on the other hand are getting more help than ever and some don't seem to be appreciating it.

When the help available is blocked by childcare providers who find it doesn't help them- and fair enough, if they can manage without the parents who rely on it then of course they will do so- what is there to appreciate?

GeorgieTheGorgeousGoat · 04/02/2019 17:24

Maybe we should be looking at the government who keep offering these benefits without fully considering the implementation of such achenes or investing adequate funding to run them. It’s neither parents nor childminders faults that they aren’t fit for purpose.

GeorgieTheGorgeousGoat · 04/02/2019 17:24

*schemes

icannotremember · 04/02/2019 17:38

Totally agreed. I don't know how governments have the gall to say they are funding 30/15 hours, knowing the amount they are prepared to pay per hour isn't sufficient for childcare settings to pay their own bills.

My cm is dubious about accepting TFC. She's happy to take vouchers though. Are the vouchers more of a guarantee that you get your money on time? Did child care providers get consulted about things like TFC? What would be their ideal system, I wonder?

nannynick · 04/02/2019 19:14

icannotremember - vouchers often represent only part of the fees. Obviously that depends on the situation but vouchers are limited in being up to £243 per parent. TFC on the other hand can be for the full amount of childcare cost, which can be £thousands.

Did child care providers get consulted about things like TFC? There was some public consultation but how many knew about such consultation documents and responded is another matter. TFC to their credit did setup a provider forum when they realised that things may not be working out well - which has resulted in nannies being included in the scheme and some changes being made to the online system so it shows cleared funds and other things.

nannynick · 04/02/2019 19:16

Are the vouchers more of a guarantee that you get your money on time?
No, I've had issues in the past with childcare vouchers not going through as expected.

nannynick · 04/02/2019 19:23

surely you can ask if there is anything pending into your account?

No, the system does not show that information. Would be useful if it did... it could send an email notification to say that a parents payment was on route... however imagine how difficult that would be for providers who have many children such as a nursery with 100+ children. The system needed to work for a provider with one, two or a few children whose fees were paid via it, as well as for providers who had 100+ children.

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