Nanny asked for holidays but not enough accrued days yet

[LivingOnTheDancefloor]

I am trying to be fair with my nanny, but not sure how to handle the following:
She has been working for us part time (3d/w) for a month. Last week we had a family holiday, so she had the week off - paid.
She asked me this morning if she could take a week off at the end of August.
My issue is that if I am right in my calculations, she "earns" 0.32 days holiday each week (3 days x 5.6 / 52 weeks), so considering she already had three days off, she won't have accrued enough days by then.
If I take into account the two August bank holidays, it will take her until mid October to start accruing more holiday days.

I am a bit uncomfortable as if she decides to leave or we decide to end her employment, I can't imagine she would repay the paid days off she didn't "earn". So basically I am taking a gamble...
I wouldn't think like this if she had been with us for years, but it has only been a month, and my husband and I have some reservations so I am not 100% sure we will continue long term with her.

Any advice? What is the etiquette in this situation?

How does it work with nannies - are you allowed to say those paid days you gave her while you had a family holiday were her holidays?

You can't include the holiday you went on as her paid holiday? Surely that was your decision? You could have asked her to come with you, or asked to try and co-ordinate holidays so you both went away at the same time.

You could explain that she doesn't have any paid holiday leave and she could take unpaid leave or you could assume she will be working for you for the full year and just dock final ages if she leaves owing paid holiday.

It does seem really unfair though that you went on holiday and made her use her paid holiday to be paid for it.

We agreed we would choose half and she would choose half. I understood it is usually done like this with nannies.

In most office type jobs people are given a total holiday allowance per year and they can take it whenever they like subject to the employer's consent to make sure they are not absenting themselves at a time when cover is impossible etc. If every office worker had to wait till they accrued holiday before they took it the admin would be ridiculously complicated.

As I understand it, if holiday has been taken before it was accrued, then the employee resigns, you deal with it by treating the unaccrued holiday as unpaid leave and deduct it from final pay.

Can you compare the position to how your or your DH's employer would treat you?

Probably someone with HR or employment law experience will be able to advise better though.

I haven't employed a nanny for a number of years, but when we did, if we had a family holiday without her then she would be paid as normal, and it would not be taken from her annual leave.

same as the cleaner would still be paid if we were away and I asked her not to come in. Although I guess in reverse I wouldn't pay her if she went away and couldn't come in and clean or was ill.

I get what you are saying, in a way us taking holidays would prevent her from taking hers... BUT even without our holidays, just counting the 2 upcoming bank holidays, she would still not have accrued enough holiday days by then.

You made her take a week off paid and use her holidays so that your family could go on holiday? You basically forced her to use up her holidays because you didn't need her that week.

I'm not sure if I'm understanding this right.
Why did you do that? She obviously wants time off but can't because you made her use up her holidays

In most office type jobs people are given a total holiday allowance per year and they can take it whenever they like subject to the employer's consent to make sure they are not absenting themselves at a time when cover is impossible etc

^This

An employee is given a set amount of annual leave entitlement to take during the year and it stands to reason some people want to use it during the summer months but your logic would mean people whose employment starts in May or June would not be able to do so.

You just dock any money from the final pay if too much leave has been taken when the employee leaves.

Sorry but I think you've got this wrong.

You took a holiday so she had no choice but to take one. So she now wants her own one

I think you have to build up a bit of goodwill. If you have a written contract you need your policy in there about accruing annual leave. So etiquette would suggest you give her the time off.

You just dock any money from the final pay if too much leave has been taken when the employee leaves

Only if written in to the contract. You're not allowed otherwise.

True Believe and I was assuming the OP would have a contact with the nanny stating this. My mistake.

OP, make sure your contract states about paying back overpaid holiday if necessary to protect yourself.

Ok, sensible advice, than you. I shall let her take the days she wants in August.
We have a draft contract, still working together on the final version, I will make sure it is clear regarding holidays, what happends if she took more than accrued, etc.

I am surprised that some posters don't agree with the fact that we made her use her holiday allowance when we went away, I understood that it was how most employers/nannies were working... She has X days off, half we choose and half she chooses. If we want to take more holidays that the half we chose, then yes she is paid and it doesn't come off the allowance.

I think possibly that you can only use an accrual system if that is clearly specified in the contract too? Otherwise the whole holiday entitlement is available from day one. Is it in the contract OP?

If you're making her use her A/L when you have your holidays then she'll never be able to have any say or choice in the matter.
So effectively you dictate her holidays.

Stuff that for a monkeys.

Cross post. NB, and you probably know this, you will have a default implied contract already, even though nothing signed.

The implied contract will be a mixture of statutory requirements and representations made by each side in negotiations/interview/offer letter etc.

It is absolutely normal and accepted that you choose the holiday on a 50/50 basis - you haven't done anything wrong there. I agree that you should (need to) allow her leave in August though.

I think people are forgetting that as well as you "forcing" her to use her allowance on your holiday, you are "forced" to use annual leave from your own job, or pay for an alternative when she chooses to go on holiday too. It's perfectly reasonable, therefore, to choose half each.

Are the bank holidays on days she works? That can have a big impact on holiday for PT employees.

Yes unfortunately both bank holidays will be on days she works

As above as you've chosen to taken holiday that shouldn't affect her. Yes in reality you can dictate when she takes all her holiday but it's not going to make a great working relationship. That's why I also have in my contract that I get paid in full when my families go over the holiday allowance.

I don't have a issue with you making her use her allowance for your holiday. That's fine. It's just rude that you won't let her take a holiday of her timing because she "hasn't accrued enough".

That's a bit mean. Get a formal contract now if you want to claw any back if overall she takes too much.

Interesting responses.

In my experience it is completely usual for the family to choose 50% of the holiday days and the nanny to take the other 50%-

It is also not uncommon for employees not be able to take holiday during the first 6 months of employment.

It is not 'mean' not to allow her to take holiday during the first few months of her job as you could well have used up your annual leave. This should be discussed openly with the nanny. Usually, holiday planning is discussed far in advance as you have your holidays, your partner's holidays, your nanny's holidays and possibly your nanny's partners holidays to juggle and take in to account.

If she has not accrued enough holiday, you could ask her to take it unpaid and to pay it back as she accrues it, though this would be odd. Instead you could agree in writing for the holiday to be deducted from final salary should she leave before it is accrued though.... if you are yet to sign a contract and you have concerns.... this might impact the relationship and you could end up with her not working her notice or other complications.

I've a nanny this last two years. If she did 3 days a week I'd give her 4 weeks holiday a year (so 12 days off) plus bank hols etc. It is usual that 2 of the weeks are of her choosing and two are of yours. If she wanted to take one of her weeks so soon after starting I'd be slightly but would be happy for her to, especially if she had a good reason (like that was the main week in the year her DP could get off work etc). I have a great nanny who I trust and who never takes the piss so I give her plenty of extra paid days off too when I can.

Thanks for all the advice. I will say yes to her.
I checked the contract draft we have been discussing, and it mentions the fact that if the employment ends and she has taken too much holidays it can be taken from her last pay - even though if we are in good terms I would imagine giving it to her as part of a leaving package.

Am I the only one finding it hard to be a fair and nice employer but also not wanting to be taken advantage of, especially at the beginning?... I used to be good at this when working in an office, but as soon as I am at home it seems harder.

You need time to find out if she's a good employee or not, that's all. Once she's earned your trust you can be more flexible. There is always a settling in period. Good luck!