Nanny may want to return with own child

[BehindTheCurtain]

Our nanny, currently on maternity leave, had made some comments which suggest she expects to come back with her baby, who would be about 7/8 months by then. DCs will be infant school and preschool age and our days are long, 11 hours minimum plus extra babysitting/overtime sometimes at short/no notice, due to the nature of our jobs and the long commute. I cannot see how the arrangement could work, especially given the nanny now lives over an hour away from us, the school run is tricky as it is and one of the kids has additional needs (not formally diagnosed, but I suspect it is a question of time).

I am not convinced that the nanny has given the issue some proper thought, because I think if she had she would have realised the difficulties. The question is when and how to bring it up. She has always been a reliable nanny and I want to be more than fair to her, by giving her as much time as possible to make other arrangements (for all I know her husband may want to become a SAHP and she might be able to continue as before), but I also do not want to mar her maternity leave with stress. On the other hand, I do not want her to assume a NWOC arrangement is a given, which is what she seems to be doing at the moment (she has said both that she would need to come back to work soon and that she would not put her baby in nursery). I fully realise we need to talk. The question is when would be best and how to approach it.

Any advice, especially by people who have been in the same situation, both employers and nannies,mould be welcome.

No experience nanny wise my experience of my own pre schooler plus dc with additional needs and a baby and it really is no issue. Many people look after a baby plus dc.

Ive no experience of this but might it be that when you want her later/evenings/weekends her OH has the baby? So he could collect the baby when he has finished work?

Lots of people have 8mos and a preschooler and a school age child so whilst ive no doubt it will be heavy going, she would at least be getting paid for it all, more than a SAHM would get.

I have seen on these threads before, however, that a NWOC arrangement usually also allows for a reduction in hourly pay.

If she is going to be working 11 hour + days for you when will she see her own baby if she doesn't bring it with her to work? I am a nanny with my own baby, I went back to work after 6 weeks as I didn't want to be an inconvenience to anyone. It was very hard at first but once in a routine was ok. I work 11/12 hour days, my baby's routine fits in around these hours and when possible I get her ready for bed before I finish work and then she can sleep on her way home. In the morning I take her to work in her pj's and she gets dressed at the same time as the other children. If my baby didn't come to work I couldn't be as flexible with hours. Oh and I have a travel cot at work and if I'm working really late we just stay the night.

What I cannot see is how my kids could get a good level of care with the baby there. Eg eldest child has two hours between getting home from school and going to bed. In that period she needs to have some time to play, do homework, have supper and have a bath. Little one needs the same, bar homework. We have a nanny because we want the kids to have high quality interactions with an adult who is dedicated to them (as opposed to the 1:4 ratio in nursery, for example). In the after school period, nanny would have 3 kids, including an under-1, and would have to cook supper, give the eldest two a bath, do homework, tidy up the house etc. Very difficult to see how it could all get done without someone being neglected, especially once the baby begins to crawl and needs to be watched constantly...

We tried it before and there is a big reduction in the level of care when you have a nanny who brings their own child with them and a large increase in the amount of hassle. My children got annoyed with another small child spoiling their games and interrupting their homework and actually even though we were meant to have mother's help, it wasn't actually helpful!

Your house will not be baby-friendly any more and babies come with equipment etc.

Its much the same when you go from one child to two, or three to four, but in your case there is going to be a big age gap and especially during school holidays, your nanny will not be able to find things that suit them all.

I think you just need to have a chat with her and explain everything you have here and that it won't be possible for her to bring her child to work. She may then decide to get something closer to home.

OP - the same way it would work if you had a third baby and your Nanny looked after that one too.

Id imagine you are well within your rights to refuse her request.

A nanny who is good at her job will easily be able to juggle the needs of all 3 children - those ages are the same as I had in my last job and I coped easily plus had a 4mth puppy

Saying that you are quite within your rights to not want nanny to bring her own baby so you do need to let her know asap - you legally have to keep her job open for her - but the same job - ie to come back without her baby

More then likely she will find another job where she can take baby so you need to let her know you don't want her to bring baby asap so she can decide what to do

She may say she will come back without baby but change her mind 4weeks before smp ends - it mucks you about but legally she can do this

She may say she won't come back and look for a new job - 11hrs and an hour comute is long

Would it be that bad to give it a trail period if she is a good nanny? Nwoc often have a 10/20% paycut so you get cheaper childcare

Just be clear asap that you do not want a NWOC situation. Lots of people don't.

What will happen during activities such as swimming. I take 3 1/2 and 6 yr old swimming, couldn't with baby. Bike riding in woods - unless she had bike with child seat she brought to work, Soft play? etc.

You offer same job to nanny as before she went on maternity leave. You do not have to offer NWOC. So she can come back without baby or not at all.

If you decide to do NWOC reduction of salary is 25-30%.

Though doesn't sound as though you are going to go down that route. Put your children first.

Oh to answer question when and how to bring it up.

She should tell you 8 weeks? before returning to work, yes?

You can then tell her the job waiting is the same as the one she left. Therefore no bringing baby.

Hopefully you having given her cause to expect to bring baby to work.

ACAS are very helpful. Try ringing and asking them.

'haven't given her cause'

Many, many, many people have three or more children and cope perfectly fine. I think the whole 'someone will be neglected' thing is total nonsense. There may need to be slight changes to the current routine, but there is absolutely no reason to expect it will be a problem. There are also many, many people who have a NWOC situation that works well for them.

You are also being unreasonable to assume she hasn't thought it through, when you clearly haven't spoken to her about it.

If you don't want a NWOC you are entirely within your rights to not have one. That's fine. You really should have made it absolutely clear before she went on ML though. You need to tell her ASAP i.e. tomorrow. If she wants to be a NWOC and you don't want that then she needs to look for another job. The decent thing to do is give her as much time as possible to look for one.

You think your dc will be neglected? You sound very precious op.

I don't think it's precious - there's a reason that no NWOC I've ever heard of charges as much as one without. Any of us who have cared for 3 children at a time, especially with an age gap, know that there is physically no way to give each child as much attention as if there were only 2 kids. For larger families, there are of course lots of benefits to having 3+ as well, but these are for the overall family and sometimes in the (very) long term, but and aren't necessarily benefit you see when it's not a sibling.

That said, having a baby around isn't such a bad thing, if it's an easy baby it could be a lovely addition to the other kids, especially if she's otherwise a great nanny and a part of your family, and she would surely be a lot more engaged if she's not having to leave her own child for 13 hours a day or work + commute.

Definitely call acas and work out where you stand and what you want, before having a frank chat with her.

How might your DS with suspected SN take to the addition? May be positive? What are the nature of his difficulties? No need to go into detail but if his needs require that bit more attention, it would be understandable if you had a chat with her on that basis.

You need to have this conversation as soon as possible.
You need to make some time in which you can talk face to face without your children there.
If you're open to considering a NWOC arrangement, what are your "red line" conditions beyond which would be unacceptable? How much less would you expect to pay?

If you would just definitely not consider NWOC she really needs to know right now. I don't think you're at fault for not stating this fact before she went, but now you are aware that she is under the impression that this is the plan, every day that goes by without you challenging her assumption could be taken as tacit consent. You aren't obliged to change her employment to suit her wishes but you do have to communicate with her. Stop being avoidy and talk to her.

What are you doing for childcare at the moment? Temp nanny? Would she want the job perm tho legally you can't offer it till nanny lets you know she isn't coming back - which as I said she may say yes she will come
Back without the baby while looking for another job and literally tell you a few weeks before she is due back that she isn't returning to work

I can't beleive you never had this chat - so not surprising that your nanny thinks she can bring baby with her if you Havnt said she can't

As I said in my first post this needs to be discussed ASAP

Thank you for your feedback. Am surprised people think returning to work with a baby is something that should be specifically ruled out before maternity leave. The assumption, and the law, is that the same job as before on the same conditions, is open if coming back within 6 months of ML starting, and after that the employer may change the role if the circumstances of the employer have changed.

Have never given cause to think that a NWOC arrangement would be a possibility, if anything the opposite, as I have explained changes to my own and DH's role (over which, like most employees, we had v little say) mean our hours are now more unpredictable than before and this is likely to be the case for the next 2 years at least.

We have a very good maternity cover and what I really do not want to do is give her notice to then find our regular nanny resigns within a week or two of coming back. But of course I cannot and would not offer her the role permanently if our regular nanny were coming back. I just need to know that she is actually planning to come back long term and is committed to the role.

DC's additional needs are such that he needs 1:1 attention at least some of the time and needs it now, not in 2 years' time, if development is not going to be further delayed.

And to those who say many people manage with three kids, yes, of course they do, but most of the time there are no additional needs involved and the three kids are siblings, meaning there is no choice. Here there are both additional needs and a choice, since the third kid is not a sibling. And frankly, we would love a third kid but do not think it would be fair, given our family situation.

What Patience said resonates.

Not sure how old your kids are but I look after my 20 month old nephew every Friday and my 6 year old son with asd.not sure how your child is effected by certain issues but I have a lots of tears and tantrums and can't leave them alone for a minute!my son doesn't like my nephew babbling or playing with his toys or turning the xbox on and off.we are finally getting there after a couple of months but still hard work.maybe offer a trial day first before making a decision? We had a childminder go off on maternity leave and we sorted all our holiday to cover it only for her to call and say she realised she would make more on smp.annoyed us as we tried to work round her only to feel she knew she wasn't coming back at the beginning of her pregnancy so could have let us know.

That all makes sense and you don't have to justify not wanting a NWOC here. What I don't understand is why you have allowed an expectation of a NWOC arrangement to grow without challenging it.

Has the nanny said anything more specific than what is in your OP: "she has said both that she would need to come back to work soon and that she would not put her baby in nursery" - she may have family who are going to look after her baby, but that isn't very likely. After hearing she wouldn't put her baby in nursery would have been a perfectly natural point to query her assumption - it just seems a bit odd that you have such communication barriers in place that you couldn't just talk about it.

"OP - the same way it would work if you had a third baby and your Nanny looked after that one too."

I don't think it would. A third baby for the OP to care for would be the OP's choice and not something foisted upon her. Prioritising a baby, as will sometimes be inevitable, over older children is one thing when that baby is your own and quite another when the baby belongs to someone else. The OP pays the nanny to prioritise her children, not the nanny's.

A NWOC arrangement would be most undesirable to me.

• A third baby for the nanny to care for, not for the OP to care for.

Would she get paid the same if she brought her own baby with her?

We had a nanny who went onto maternity leave and then has come back to us with her own child (only 1 or 2 days a week though). I don't think you are under any legal obligation to have her return to work with her own child at all. I think if she wanted to come back to work without her child and you wanted to keep your maternity cover then I think that could be considered discrimination if the job and your requirements haven't changed. I have 3 children (only 1 under 5) and the others are at school. I do the school run and then she arrives and looks after the baby and her own child until end of school and picks up the others. If there are clubs etc.. then I do the pick up and drop offs and she stays with the other children. I think it works for us because I am at home too and I can pick up some of the slack. She works the remaining 3 days sole-charge with another family who have 3 children. I think she does find it a struggle and they are 9,6 and 2. Her husband comes and picks up the baby at 4.30 after his work finishes. I think she wouldn't be able to logistically cope with tea and bathtime with all the children. She definitely has less time time for the children and (quite naturally) spends a lot of time tending to her own child. She also takes much more time off as (like all babies!) her child gets ill a lot. For us it works as if she has to have the odd week off then we can manage. I am at home so can do the homework etc.. myself. She is an amazing nanny and we think the world of her and her child and while it does have some niggles we are very happy. I think at some point you need to have chat with your own nanny and see what she wants to do and whether it will fit in with your requirements. i think that 'nanny with own child' can work well but generally when the children are older and/or when it is a family who have only 1 or 2 children (so the own child can be a playmate).