Please help! I've given my childminder 4 weeks notice and she mentioned to me that I have to pay her 3 weeks holiday?!

[unicorn86]

Hello, I'm sorry if this type of stuff is already discussed.

I told today my childminder that I'm planning to terminate my contract with her and I'll give her written notice tomorrow. I mentioned 30.08.14 as my daughter's last day in the nursery. She surprised me bad by telling me that I have to pay her 3 weeks for her holiday which starts 02.08.14 - 25.08.14. Me and my family are going abroad at 01.08.14 and we'll be back on 22.08.14. This childminder is too far from our new home so we decided to move the daughter somewhere locally. I thought as I give 4 weeks written notice as it is noticed in the contract that would be ok, but the childminder doesn't think so. My contract has started 26.09.13 and it is noticed that she can get 4 weeks paid off but on the other hand I've paid 2 weeks for her holidays over Christmas time and another single day on 23.05.14 . Now she asking me for paying for another 3 weeks holiday after termination of the contract on 30.07.14. Is she eligible to get payments for extra 3 weeks?

I'll attach scanned copy of my contract.
P.S: I can obviously upload up to 3 files, so I'll upload only the pages related to the case :)

Almaradlu, could you tell me whether childminders are employed ot self employed persons, because if they are self employed, then I should count her holiday as part of the service given to me, when I terminate my contract the service is stopped. She can't expect me paying her summer brake, out of the contract. I don't get paid for my holidays as I am self employed as well...

Childminders are self-employed, not employees. If she was your employee, you'd have to do all the PAYE tax stuff etc.

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate your help. I'll give the CM written notice on 02.07.14 because that's exactly 28 days before my daughter's last day in the setting and we'll see how it goes. Have a good and productive day!

Do you need to give her 4 weeks or a calendar month?

Tbf if she insists that her holiday should be paid pro rata you can equally say yours should be reduced to reflect your pro rata holiday entitlement which you seem not to have taken. What's good for the goose etc!

unicorn86
We are self employed and when the contract ends, everything ends.

She had not written hardly any information about holidays on the contract apart from the 4 weeks for either party - nothing about being paid for holidays that had not been taken. Which in the nearly 13 years I had been childminding had never heard of a childminder being paid this BUT it could happen if that is what was discussed, agreeded and written and then signed for in a contract.

To be honest the information she has filled in on the contract is very basic, I tend to have nearly spaces filled in and often I run out of space but then I try to cover every possible outcome (I have learnt over the years)

Is she new to this ?

Hope you manage to sort this out

DrinkFeckArseGirls
It is 4 working/contracted weeks

Thanks alma. Dd goes to the nursery and it's always been a calendar month hence my question i am Not reading the contract .

I am however self employed and the op's cm is being a chancer.

DrinkFeckArseGirls

It is down to each childcare provider with what they choose and write in their contracts as their notice period. I have two weeks, some have four weeks, some have more :)

I'm a CM, I don't charge when I can't work, although there is an option to charge for CM holidays on the standard NCMA contracts.

But my contract does state that the notice period cannot include either CM/ parent holidays. I had someone give 4 weeks notice, during which I was on holiday for a week so I asked to be able to work a week longer.

Are you giving notice to try and avoid paying her holiday which you agreed to do?

I agree most self employed people don't get paid holiday, however, some CM pro rata payments or offer a lower hourly rate and charge throughout the year, which means pay is more equal throughout the year.

I pro rata got one parent, who is TTO and even though I've given notice because I'm packing it in at end of term I am still owed a payment for August.

We will leave our cm on 2 Sept and she goes away on 22nd Sept for 2wks and other than Xmas wk hasn't had any holiday since end Aug last yr she had 3wks a yr plus few odd days and no we are not paying her for her holiday this yr why would we contract will have ended doubt it would cross her mind to ask what utter nonsense think childminder is trying it on.

Give your notice to end of July. You then dont pay holiday HOWEVER find someone else for the last days in aug or you are going to have to.pay lots!!!

Yes I agree you need to pay her pro rata for the holidays owed - which will be 10/12 of the number of days (20) that you agreed to pay - minus the days of holiday you have already paid her for.

If you have also agreed to pay her for public holidays in addition to her holidays she may well only have taken 7 days holiday over Christmas, leaving her with 12 for the year (after her other day off), which means you owe her for 9 days - I think you will have to pay for 4 days and she can also keep your deposit.

I don't think we know enough to accuse the CM of being a chancer. She may be, of course.

One scenario is that she has a lower rate to account for the holiday payments. She has planned her holiday for a while and, at the last moment, her client has given 1 month's notice in order to avoid the holiday payment.
CM is extremely unlikely to fill the place in time, so loses out.

I imagine, if this is the case, she'll be tightening up her procedures or raising her fees to avoid it happening again.

I agree that there seems to be some kind of pro rata payment due. It is irrelevant whether her 3 weeks holiday is in August or any other time, as it is past the end of the contract.

Paying her holiday when you are no longer using her is a new one on me!

Self employed when it suits - can dictate.

Employed when it suits - gets holiday and sick pay.

While I am sure someone would say the non holiday chargers ask for more per hour so it all balances out are missing the point. It isn't what you pay per hour it is whether you are SE or not and it working both ways.

The old SE/not SE chestnut has been done to death many times on these boards and elsewhere. The only organisation that can say with authority whether or not a CM is Self Employed is HMRC and they're fine with childminders charging for their holidays as part of their contracts.

You could look at it the other way - The CM has negotiated a rate with the parent which allows for 4 weeks a year paid holiday. Because she is actually taking a good bit of the holiday right at the end of the year, even if the OP pays pro rata (say for 10/12ths) she is still avoiding the inconvenience/possible extra cost of her CM actually being away by leaving just before the holiday. The CM would be wise to make it clearer in her contracts that holiday will be charged pro rata in the event that parents withdraw their child during the course of the year.

You could look at it another way and say holiday is 8 weeks. CM 4 weeks and Parent 4 weeks.
Nothing to say those have to happen at the same time.

All we have to go by is what is written in the contract. We do not know what was discussed or verbally agreed at the intial signing of the contract.

The childminder should in future include everything, every single detail in the contract and then there wont be any quetions regarding any holidays that are outstanding and need paying.

When I first started I had a family asking to renew their contract every 2-3 months, thinking they could then have another 4 weeks holiday (they used to go away on a regular basis) I soon learnt and then made sure that I included when holidays run from and to and how many weeks per contracted year and if they were part time, I would include the pro rata part. The first few years was a huge learning curve for me.

I'm sorry about my absence but had a broadband issues yesterday. I'm really surprised how many people has responded to my case. Thank you all for your advises and support. I want to declare that I'm not a bad b*tch, I have a lot of patience when the thing are down to me, but got monster when somebody's messing with my child. I mentioned kindly couple of times (I've mentioned it like a joke) that I don't accept any kind of discrimination to my daughter or any child in the setting. There were many small things mentioned before I say a word about anything... I really had good attitude to the childminder. I spent over £150 just for sweets, cake, Glenfiditch and Baylis for CM and her assistant e.t.c I gave her present for her birthday, you know when you like somebody you wanna show her your respect and attention... The other thing is that I know what the signature means in the bottom of the contract. Couple of months ago I've paid for the fact that I put a whole pile of clothes left in the washing machine by customer and instructed by note to put the laundry in the tumble drier. Well after that the customer complaint to the agency which I work with that shirt has been shrunken and had to pay the amount of the shirt. I saw the shirt after that and it was very worn... No matter of that I've read my contract and it is written clearly that I'm supposed check the tags before I use washing machine or tumble drier. Couple of days after that a colleague that she's been set up on same way by same customer. Well, I already found out that clause of my contract and knew that is my fault that I have't read that. I'm sorry if I get so boring...
I wouldn't get so mad if the CM didn't ask me for 3 weeks holiday payment when she perfectly know that we've paid for over 2 weeks already. I even discussed with my husband before I let the CM know that we may have to pay some holiday pay and he said no problem. Well, when she asked me for 3 weeks then I know she want to drain my wallet... After all I know I would speak to CM and point out clearly that I will pay her only 5 days and just because my good will because nowhere in the contract is written in the termination section that any unused holidays should be paid. I think that's fair because of the fact that I already accepted to sign off the contract but to be honest she never explained and mentioned what happens when you leave before the contract is finished. I don't even know the length of the contract, I've only noticed that contract should be reviewed every 6 or 12 months.

The contract is for the duration of the time you are using her services. So you are going to effectively offer her a pro rata payment? Her terms are holidays being each calendar year I believe (not pa your child attends) which would make it around 12 days not 5? I think you shouldn't have to pay any but I think you need to be accurate before offering her anything to avoid any arguments!

The contract quite clearly says the notice can't be counted on weeks she is away... So if she is away week 3&4 the 4 weeks notice are week 1&2,5&6... So you pay her those... If you are contracted to pay her leave too you also have to pay 3&4

I can't manage to read your contract, Unicorn - does it say 20 days a year, plus bank/public holidays? If so, and you want to "do the right thing" then I suggest the following:

For 10 months, she would be entitled to 16.67 days (20 x 10/12)
She's already taken 8 days: Dec 23, 24, 27, 30, 31, Jan 2, 3, May 23
The other days were all bank holidays (Christmas, New Year, Easter, May)

So that would leave 8.67 days accrued but not yet taken
5 days would be covered by the deposit
3.67 days could now be paid
So perhaps you might like to offer her an additional £146.67 (£40 x 3.67)?

Then you can leave with a clear conscience . . . and she can sort out her contract for future clients.

Yes and it says she is entitled to 4 weeks paid time off so you must pay her 6 weeks if the two weeks holiday fall in the notice period

We will give her notice in writing tomorrow that we want to end our contract with her on 31.07.14, which counted down from tomorrow is exactly 29 days, so she can have 28 full days of notice. If you scroll down a bit of the first post, you'll find a link Childminder's contract to dropbox folder with the contract. There is written ... Actually I'll post again the link to the congtract, so you can see for yourselves that this 4 weeks paid time off are in a group with the other components of the pricing every week. This means that if there is a week for example with a bank holiday, I should pay currently £200 for 5 days, because bank holidays a full pay. If there is a full working week there is a payment of £200 again because is a full pay for 5 days. If she is in holiday I'll pay her £100, because her holiday is half pay. It is clearly stated that payments have to be done every week, so that means she has to give us receipt or invoice every week (no matter she does it for nearly 2 months term). In this case then, this 4 weeks paid time off is maximum period could be gained during the contract. I'm not solicitor but for me this is the actual truth and I wouldn't ask CM for negotiation. I know that I am right so I will pointed out clearly that any payment would be done only because of my good will and I will enclose a declaration that she receives that money and we have no more money owed to her.