Please help! I've given my childminder 4 weeks notice and she mentioned to me that I have to pay her 3 weeks holiday?!

[unicorn86]

Hello, I'm sorry if this type of stuff is already discussed.

I told today my childminder that I'm planning to terminate my contract with her and I'll give her written notice tomorrow. I mentioned 30.08.14 as my daughter's last day in the nursery. She surprised me bad by telling me that I have to pay her 3 weeks for her holiday which starts 02.08.14 - 25.08.14. Me and my family are going abroad at 01.08.14 and we'll be back on 22.08.14. This childminder is too far from our new home so we decided to move the daughter somewhere locally. I thought as I give 4 weeks written notice as it is noticed in the contract that would be ok, but the childminder doesn't think so. My contract has started 26.09.13 and it is noticed that she can get 4 weeks paid off but on the other hand I've paid 2 weeks for her holidays over Christmas time and another single day on 23.05.14 . Now she asking me for paying for another 3 weeks holiday after termination of the contract on 30.07.14. Is she eligible to get payments for extra 3 weeks?

I'll attach scanned copy of my contract.
P.S: I can obviously upload up to 3 files, so I'll upload only the pages related to the case :)

It says charges for absences. It does not say (unless I've read it wrong and missed a clause, I'm struggling with the drop box site) there is a right to be paid in lieu on termination of the contract. Since she is not a worker, she does not have that right therefore. The childminder's booked holiday for August is not an absence, since the contract will already have terminated.

Actually, looking closer at the contract, the holiday year starts on 1 Jan and runs to 31 Dec. She'll have worked 30 out of 52 weeks by the end of July, with only one day off. She was not entitled to the two weeks off at Xmas, but they've been paid... I'd still say accept you've lost the deposit, but she can write off anything extra.

A bit of a chancer all round, this one.

But the booked holiday in august isn't anything to do with anything, it's for holiday entitlement accrued to the point of the termination of contract,so up to 30 July, she has accrued 10/12s of four weeks, roughly 17 days, of these she has already had 11 days, so the balance of six days will be payable at the cm holiday rate of £18 per day.

It's a very confusing contract, isn't it?

but by that reckoning the 14 or so weeks before Christmas would accrue one of the weeks she took off at Christmas . Does the 4 weeks include BHs as I'd read the first page as suggesting not , which would be at least another 2 days of the 2 weeks over Christmas.

I do agree though, she is chancing her arm.

If the contract started in September she should've only had five days off before January 2014, and has thus far accrued 12 days up to July 30.

So although the totals come back to the same figure over he period of the contract, you would've been well within your rights to pay her nix for the additional five days at christmas, but you'd have to pay that as additional pay now.

I calculate that 6 days at 18 comes to £108, so actually what she's owed is less than the deposit. Up to you if you want to persue the £72 that she will owe you, should she retain the deposit.

Although, I would advise a word of caution if you are relying on her for the next month; ask to see a breakdown or her rationale of the holiday time owed, then you can refute it.

Nowhere in that contract (that I can see) does it mention holiday being pro rata. The contract talks about being paid for booked holiday. Therefore you pay for holidays if you are with the child minder and not if you aren't. I'd be pretty upset that you have ended up with notice falling just before her holiday but unfortunately for her that's the way it goes.

Don't get me wrong butI wouldn't mind giving her good tip for her service. To be honest me and my husband were happy with her service just the first couple of month when she was paying attention to our daughter and the children were 6. After that when children got more we were used to collect the child with dirty hands or face most of the times and I caught the childminder couple of times that she let my daughter for afternoon nap without p?jamas and my child obviously has slept wearing clothes for play. I mentioned all of that to her and she couldn't give me any proper excuse. Since that time I don't wanna do or give anything extra if that's not required by contract.

Tbh, it's a pretty ambiguous contract.

Worse case scenario, you owe six days at £18. Certainly not 3 weeks.

If you can face losing the £72, I'd just leave her the deposit.

The nap is not that short, TravelinColour. It last from 12:30 or 13:00 to 15:30 or 16:00. During the course of the day children go to park or local exhibition farm. They got dirty not just that time but when they eat as well. For those time during the nap my daughter get sweaty and can confirm that because of she got sick while we were waiting for the train. Another thing is that she has purposely done it only to my child and another small girl, but the rest of children wears pajamas. Do you think that's right?

When did she give you written notice of her holiday dates for August?
Contract says: The registered childminder agrees to: "1)e) Give at least 4 weeks written notice of annual holiday and as much notice of other leave as possible."

It later says "The registered childminder and the parent(s)/guardian(s) agree to consult and review this contract every 6 months." There is then space on the contract to write the dates of the reviews. Last review was on 26/09/13. So there should have been one 6 months later - end of March 2014. Was there?

Holiday year looks like it is incorrectly filled out (they included the year). Will assume that they meant to put 1 Jan to 31 Dec.

Charges: Childminder paid time off 4 weeks £18 per day (note 18)
Parent/Guardian paid time off 4 weeks £18 per day (note 19)

So what is both were off at the same time? Is it whomever notifies (in writing) first, that starts the counter for their particular 4 weeks? Can the other party then still take their full 4 weeks at the negotiated fee?

Note18 - Period of time off in the year, which negotiated fee applies.
Note19 - annual holiday each year during which time childminding service will not be required, fee negotiated as a retainer to ensure that the place remains available.
Note21 (this is referred to by Note18 & Note19) - Mentions notice period to give for holiday and says "Unused holiday will not be carried over into the next holiday period unless agreed by the parties in writing."

I can not see where it says that the childminder is entitled to 4 weeks paid holiday in the holiday year in a situation where the contract has ended.

What happens if notice was given on 1st January? Would 4 weeks of holiday been due then? Even though the contract would have ended 4 weeks later so the holiday year would only have been 4 weeks long.

The childminder is entitled to take 4 weeks off and be paid £18 per day for that time off. However I can not see where it says that they are due that amount if they take that time off (even if they have notified about it in writing already) at a point following the end date of the contract.

By giving notice now, the end date of the contract is BEFORE their holiday, so I do not feel you owe they any money for their time off.

Offering that they keep the deposit as a goodwill gesture I feel is fine to do if you feel you wish to do so. It may be enough to persuade them not to pursue legal action. If they do want to take legal action, then let them. See if they can convince small claims court that you owe them money.

Any issues over quality of care should be raised at the time, which is what you did. If it was not resolved, then you should have considered terminating the contract before now, as you would have been dissatisfied with the service. You continued using the service so I would presume that you reached an agreement about any care issues.

What will you do if the childminder does not return your deposit? Take them to small claims court? Can you really be bothered to do that?

Try to come to an agreement between yourselves, try to avoid court action. Negotiate. Use the deposit money to negotiate a settlement.

Holidays - Planner

The link above is a list sticked to a message board in the childminder's hallway. She has not given to me any written notice except those list. I doubt she will give me any notice on paper. She has never given to me any written notice for the Christmas holiday... And no, we haven't reviewed the contract in March. Actually we pay £200/weekly since 06.01.14. She did let me know about the rise before the Christmas holiday. I've seen some paperworks but never have been given any of them to sign on. She told me that we'll talk about that after the holidays, but that never happened.

I think nannynick sums it up correctly.

The only reason why I could see CM saying that to you is because you must have agreed to pay her this holiday before you gave notice? If as an employee you leave work with holiday days left over, then your employer should pay you for those days. Maybe this is what she is thinking?? Just playing devils advocate, this isn't written in your contract so you don't have to pay her!

Legally you don't owe her anything, as contract is unclear it will go in favour of those who didn't write it, I.e you.

Have you received final invoice yet? If not it would be worth asking CM for a written breakdown in charges and see what she comes up with.

I think you should sit down and speak to your childminder again - have your written notice ready to give to her and explain that you wanted the end of August childminding as just a one off before your child starts with the new childminder.
I can see where your CM is coming from as if you do leave at the end of July she could get new children or might have to turn them away because you need an extra week in August and she may be over her numbers etc. but either way you definitely need to talk this through with her.
If you still feel she is being unreasonable you can contact your LA regarding this. I can also recommend CM's in your area who might be able to help with Childcare for your LO for the dates you've mentioned.
Is your CM definitely Ofsted registered? The daily charge is very low compared to a vast majority of other minders in that area.

Perhaps you could use those 2 things to sow the seed that maybe her case isn't as watertight as she may think. By not doing as the contract says, she may have breached her own contract. Use it to negotiate a settlement.

We don't need any care during August, my mother will look her after for a week. We definitely will speak to her and I'll mention her about those 12 days paid out and that fact that we actually have 10/12s so we are more likely to count 17 days than 20. I'm not sure if she can claim 25,26 December and 1 January as bank holiday. We paid her for £20/day holiday price as bank holiday stands £40/day.

The invoice for December, January and other months with bank/public holidays like May would have had on them the pay she wanted I would have expected. They are bank/public holidays so pay arrangements for those should have been as per the contract. Is she now saying that she forgot to bill for them correctly?

We never have received anything like invoice, but receipts. The receipt for Christmas holidays is as it shown below:

Childminding Receipt Receipt No. 31

Childminder's details:
*
*
*
Parent's/guarantor's details:
*
*
*
Payment details: £1520
The sum of ...etc...
For the perioud 2/12/13 to 31/01/14
Received from....... Childminder's signature:......
Payer's signature:........ Date of payment: 31/01/14 (which is not true, we pay strictly weekly up to date)

Well it looks like you planned your last day to fit in with skipping her holiday, so you were clearly aware of her holidays dates. To be fair I think you should pay her pro-rata for her holidays. The contract isn't clear though and this is probably her fault so you can probably take advantage of this if you want to.

You say you have been happy with her service? Therefore in my opinion i think you should talk to her and pay her pro-rata for her holidays and also tell her to make her contract clearer in the future. I think she should be open to this, especially since the contract is not clear.

Childminder here (also I use the Welsh version of these contracts).
There is nothing on there about paying outstanding holidays after you leave the childcare setting. All it states that you agree to pay xx amount when holiday is taken.

I have just had read the terms and condition on yours and no where does it state I could anything about having holiday pay AFTER the childcare has ended.

I believe as long as notice is given as per contract and the notice period ends before she is due to take her holiday you do NOT have to pay her anything.

I have been in the same position where families have left before I have taken some of my holidays and its just a fact of self employed life that you lose the holiday pay(if you do get holiday pay).

hth

sorry I miss typed this sentence

I have just had read the terms and condition on yours and no where does it state anything about having holiday pay AFTER the childcare has ended.

its late and Im tired but hope you understand ;)